The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Presiding Officer (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, and to ask the first question, Vikki Howells.

<p>Supporting Farmers in the Cynon Valley</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting farmers in the Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0042(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The rural development programme is the main mechanism for supporting Wales’s farmers, including smaller upland holdings and marginal farms, such as those in the Cynon Valley, through agri-environment and investment schemes where they are eligible and qualify. Support is also available through Glastir and Farming Connect.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I recently met with a group of farmers in Ynysybwl, which is a marginal farmland area in my constituency, at a meeting organised by the National Farmers Union. We discussed the acidic quality of local soil, and it was suggested that liming of the soil in the area may benefit farmers, but would also bring environmental improvements. Would the Welsh Government consider building this idea into current and future farmer support schemes?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I’m very pleased you took up the farming union’s invitations to visit farms in your constituency. Welsh Government officials have regular and very productive engagement with farming stakeholders on Glastir, and that includes, obviously, the farming unions. European Commission rules require agri-environment support to pay for activities that exceed usual farming practice, so liming would really be part of usual farming practice. I think future support really is about primarily driving transformational change across the industry to become more sustainable, profitable, and resilient.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, obviously, the rural development plan offers a level of support to agriculture, whether it be in the Cynon Valley or anywhere else in South Wales Central, or indeed Wales. The Government is committed to bringing a small grants scheme forward in this term. When do you think that small grants scheme might well be available to farmers to access, and what do you have in mind as being permissible under such a small grants scheme, when it is up and running?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Those discussions, you’ll appreciate, four months into this term of Government, are at very early stages, so I can’t give you a date when it will be available. I’ve started to have discussions with my Cabinet colleagues around this. I suppose early thinking is looking at perhaps small pieces of equipment, for instance, through capital grants, but, as I say, it is very early days.

<p>Flood Risk in Clwyd West</p>

Darren Millar AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on flood risk in Clwyd West? OAQ(5)0040(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As with many parts of Wales, flood risk in Clwyd West comes from rivers, sea and surface water. To reduce this risk, Clwyd West has benefited from more than £20 million of investment over the past five years, including work at Colwyn Bay, Ruthin and Kinmel Bay.

Darren Millar AC: And thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the investment that the Welsh Government has made available to protect homes and businesses from flooding in my constituency. But, of course, individuals can take some responsibility to protect their own properties as well. And you will be aware that, over the border in England, there are grants of up to £5,000 to individual homeowners, to help them make their properties more resilient, but no such grants are available here in Wales. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to making such grants available, so that people can accept some responsibility, to support making their own properties more flood resilient?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, we don’t provide those types of grants to individual homeowners; rather, we focus on funding much larger schemes to benefit groups of properties or communities. We do support property-level resilience, when brought forward, as an appropriate solution by local authorities or by Natural Resources Wales, and we provide grant funding for that purpose. I think what we’re doing is presently allocating budgets for community-wide alleviation schemes, which, in most cases, have a greater cost benefit and also provide a greater level of protection.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: A tidal lagoon for north Wales, of course, is one possible way of contributing towards tackling flood problems and coastal erosion in Clwyd West. So, could you give us an update on where your Government is in terms of any practical support that you’re giving to developing the potential of a tidal lagoon in north Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I’ve had discussions with the tidal lagoon company, and one of the advantages they referred to, when talking about the possible tidal lagoon around the Colwyn Bay area, was the fact that it would offer resilience against flooding. So, again, those discussions are ongoing.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

I now call on the party spokespeople to ask questions to the Cabinet Secretary, and, first this week, the Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in a meeting of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on 14 September, you responded to a question on farming regulations, saying that you’ll look to strengthen regulations in some areas when looking at Welsh-specific requirements going forward. Can you clarify what you mean by ‘strengthen’ and tell us what specific regulations you’re actually looking to introduce in the very near future?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I wasn’t being particularly specific. What I think I was saying was that when we have a look, and when we unpick—I think I mentioned that there are 5,000 pieces of legislation within my portfolio in relation to agriculture and fisheries—when we unpick them and we are looking at Welsh specific going forward, it could be that we would strengthen some of the legislation or regulations.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that clarification. Of course, one set of regulations that the Welsh Government is looking at is in relation to nitrate vulnerable zones. Now, you won’t be surprised that I’ve received plenty of correspondence on this matter, and there are serious concerns regarding these proposals, which could impose huge burdens on farmers and, as a result, force many out of business due to the financial implications, and farmers will see this as just another blow to the agricultural community. I appreciate that these proposals are currently at a consultation stage, but how is the Welsh Government working with farmers affected to ensure that they fully understand the cost and the impact that these regulations will have on their businesses, and will you confirm whether any financial support will be made available to farmers who will face additional costs as a result of complying with any new regulations?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The member is correct—we are obviously out to consultation at the moment. In fact, just last Monday, 10 October, my officials met with representatives of the National Farmers Union in Pembrokeshire to discuss this, along with local farmers also from Pembrokeshire, and I have to say I’ve been told it was a very positive meeting. I think farmers are very keen to consider how best to stop excessive nitrate pollution in waterways, and they were very happy to bring forward their views. Obviously, all views will be taken into account. So, I’m very pleased you’ve received significant correspondence, and I would urge your constituents to take part in the consultation.

Paul Davies AC: I’m grateful to you for that response, but I’m sure that you would agree with me that regulations can, in some cases, represent an obstacle to efficient farming practices and business growth. Therefore, in light of the previous Government’s ‘Working Smarter’ report, will you commit to evaluating the costs attached to farming regulations in Wales and look at ways in which the Welsh Government can ease regulations, thereby lowering the cost of them to farmers, ahead of Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I do appreciate that there could be an increased cost to certain parts of the farming community. They will have to be taken into account when we look at the full impact assessment that would accompany any new regulations. And I think we have to look at any increased costs that have to be weighed against the benefits to the environment.

The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Lywydd. The Welsh Government, quite rightly accepts that farmers should receive payments for carrying out environmentally responsible tasks. That’s important to all of us, whether we’re farmers or not. As the Cabinet Secretary will know, important agri-environment schemes are the Glastir Entry and Glastir Commons schemes, and that’s vitally important to many upland farmers for income support at a time of falling farm incomes. Now that the Treasury has slightly, at least, clarified post-Brexit funding, will she be prepared to consider opening a new window for Glastir Entry and Glastir Commons applications, and allow those that are in Glastir Entry already to extend their contracts beyond five years?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Certainly, we’re looking at which windows we can open. I want to get as many windows open as soon as possible to ensure we draw down as much funding as possible.

Neil Hamilton AC: I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. As she’ll be aware, there are about 1,600 farmers who will be left high and dry from this December if the scheme is not extended, and, if the policy doesn’t change, there’ll be about another 3,000 who will be affected in future years. This scheme is widely held to be a successor to the end of the Tir Mynydd scheme, and £25 million was transferred from one budget to another as part of this. Many farmers think it’s a bit of a betrayal that the window of opportunity has been closed for some time, and, therefore, would she agree with me that it is vitally important that it be reopened?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’ve had those discussions with the farmers myself, certainly over the summer at the agricultural shows I visited, and with individual farmers, and we are working very hard to ensure that funding gets to them as quickly as possible.

Neil Hamilton AC: Thank you. Moving to another environmental scheme—section 15 agreements for sites of special scientific interest. On average, farmers get about £2,175 a year in payments under these agreements, and they are absolutely vital for the protection of landscape, wildlife and the environment. There is a budget cut from 2011 of about a quarter of the budget. In August, Natural Resources Wales said only about 118 of 172 individual management agreements up for renewal this year are likely to be given a new contract. Is the Cabinet Secretary able to give us any further information on this and would she agree with me that it would certainly be very advantageous not just to the farmers themselves, but also to anybody interested in rural life particularly in the uplands that they should be renewed?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t have that information to hand but I’m happy to write to the Member with that information.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, can I refer you to Part 2 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, which sets out a statutory framework for tackling climate change? But, at present, as you’ll know, it’s just a framework with no short-term targets or a delivery plan. Can you outline when and how you’re going to introduce these targets and an emissions reduction plan, and can you confirm that the 40 per cent reduction target of the previous Government in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020 still remains this Government’s target?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can certainly confirm that the 40 per cent reduction target by 2020 still stands absolutely for this Government also. I’m looking at the implementation of the environment Act going forward, but, again I don’t have that date to hand, but I’d be very happy to let you know.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary at least for confirming on the record that the 40 per cent target is still there, because it was missing from the programme for government. But she will know that the recent report by the UK Committee on Climate Change says that we are, unfortunately, highly unlikely to meet our 40 per cent reduction target, and I do wonder how we might do that under the environment Act because the deadline for setting interim carbon budgets, which is going to be an important method of reaching that target, is not due until 2018. So, in light of the fact that we don’t have any kind of emission reduction plan and in light of the fact that she’s just told me that she doesn’t have any details in front of her, how can we have faith that that 2020 target will in fact be met?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, not everything is in the programme for government, I should say that, but absolutely that target still stands. But it is incredibly challenging, I wouldn’t hesitate to say that. In relation to the carbon budget, I’m currently meeting all my Cabinet colleagues to discuss how, across Government, each of their portfolios is helping to reduce our emissions. The carbon budgeting process is very important, and we’re obviously into the first one of those budgets, but that work is ongoing and I do want to reassure the Member.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary. I think we certainly noticed that the programme for government was rather thin and so it’s worth asking what is part of the Government’s programme at the moment. I certainly look forward to examining how carbon budgeting can work within the Assembly and the impact it will have on the Government’s own budget process. But can I turn now to another Act that the previous Government passed, which is the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and goal 7 of that Act sets out that we in Wales want to be ‘A nation, which when doing anything to improve the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales, takes account of whether doing such a thing may make a positive contribution to global well-being’, ‘and the capacity to adapt to change (for example climate change)’.In that context, the European Parliament on 4 October formally ratified the Paris climate change agreement on behalf of the EU. Following the decision to leave the European Union, of course, do you agree with me that it would be good for the National Assembly now to take our global responsibility seriously, as set out under goal 7 of the well-being of future generations Act, and for us as an Assembly to also formalise and formally ratify the Paris agreement?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, it does seem that we can’t win. Last term, we were criticised for having too big a document for our programme for government and this time we’re criticised for it being too thin. Perhaps next time the Welsh Labour Government will have the absolute perfect one. I think that you do raise an important issue around Paris, and I will be representing Wales at the COP22 in Marrakech next month, but I think this is certainly something we can have discussions on because it is very important that we show that we’re very happy to play our full part.

<p>Rural Communities</p>

Andrew RT Davies AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on her Welsh Government’s priorities for the fifth Assembly for rural communities across South Wales Central? OAQ(5)0041(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: We have been absolutely clear about our commitment to provide support to deliver successful and sustainable rural communities across Wales. We co-finance our rural development programme with the European Union and so expect the UK Government to provide an unconditional guarantee to fund all projects contracted under the programme for their lifetime.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. One of the things that was brought in in the third Assembly by the Presiding Officer, when she was rural affairs Minister, was a change to the planning system for rural dwellings under TAN 6. I appreciate that planning isn’t in your portfolio of responsibilities—

Lesley Griffiths AC: It is.

Andrew RT Davies AC: It is; better still then—the question has more relevance than I thought it was going to have. [Laughter.] Being a regional Member, I have three different councils in South Wales Central that interpret that planning guidance in very different ways, they do. For succession in farm businesses, but also for rural businesses, this provision within the planning system is of vital consideration to allow businesses to move forward. Are you minded, Cabinet Secretary, to do a review of how TAN 6 is being implemented across Wales because, obviously, consistency is vital so that businesses do not feel that they are being hindered in the succession planning or in just being able to expand their businesses and diversify into other areas?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can say that, yes, I am responsible for planning. Certainly, in my discussions with farmers, they haven’t raised too many concerns about TAN 6. In fact, they are very grateful and happy that it’s there. But I think that consistency is absolutely correct, and obviously we have 25 planning authorities across Wales and, with anything like that, I think you always get a level of inconsistency. I think the Planning (Wales) Act 2015, as we take that forward, will help in that way. But I’m very happy to look at anything that I think will improve planning going forward.

<p>Biosafety on Farms in Wales</p>

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on biosafety on farms in Wales? OAQ(5)0044(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Biosecurity is our first line of defence against serious notifiable infectious diseases like foot and mouth disease or bovine TB. It should be a vital part of daily farming life, helping to ensure that animals stay healthy and that businesses remain profitable.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. One of the major frustrations that farmers are facing at the moment is the six-day standstill rule. There’s been much talk from the previous Minister in the previous Government that it was an intention to move to a model based on quarantine units. Can you give us an update on where you are with that particular development, and how soon will we see farmers being given that option of using those units rather than closing their farms down for six days?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, this has been a significant piece of work. I know my officials have been working very closely with the livestock identification advisory group on the proposals for the quarantine units and we do continue to work with our stakeholders on the delivery of the project. I think what the new arrangements will do is simplify the standstill regime by replacing complex exemptions for isolation facilities, and I anticipate now the introduction of the units to be late spring of next year.

Suzy Davies AC: The ‘State of Nature 2016 Wales’ report states that land management is an important factor in conservation, as over 70 per cent of Wales is made up of farmland. Management, of course, includes safety management. The authors of the report have recently called on Welsh Government to do a number of things, including support land management that helps to maintain and enhance nature and the resilience of ecosystems, which of course are vulnerable to mistakes in terms of biosafety. What’s missing from our agri-environmental schemes to help support biodiversity—biosafety, sorry?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’m not aware that there’s anything missing. But if the Member thinks there is specifically, if she’d like to write to me, I’ll certainly look into it.

<p>The Nitrates Directive </p>

Neil Hamilton AC: 5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made as to the likely costs and benefits of complying with the nitrates directive for individual businesses in the proposed designated areas? OAQ(5)0046(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: I am currently consulting on the review of the designated areas and action programme to tackle nitrate pollution in Wales and, subject to the outcome of the consultation, I intend to introduce new legislation next year. A full regulatory impact assessment will be produced at that time.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I was going to suggest that this regulatory impact assessment perhaps ought to be produced sooner than when she currently expects, because Welsh Ministers are committed to considering the impact of subordinate legislation on business, according to their own code of conduct, and it would be much better if this formed part of the consultation exercise itself because then the responses to the consultation would be better informed and Ministers could take better decisions as a consequence.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t agree with that.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, in regard to the proposals for a nitrate-vulnerable zone along the sweep of the Cleddau and above Pendine, I’ve got great concerns because, both of those areas, you only have one direction of travel—back inland. Have you given any consideration, or what efforts have your officers done to ensure or to review the potential damage that could occur to land that is just outside of the nitrate-vulnerable zone, which would not only have to spread their own slurry, but in fact be the receivers for those who are trying to ship their slurry away from the zone?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think part of that work was done, and one of the reasons why we’ve gone out to consultation is on the back of that. I really would urge the Member and all constituents who’ve got an interest in this to take part in the consultation, because I’m very interested to hear people’s views. If other Members or their constituents have views around different approaches they think we could take, I’m very happy to consider those also.

<p>The Great Welsh Outdoors</p>

John Griffiths AC: 6. What steps will be taken to widen access to the great Welsh outdoors? OAQ(5)0049(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government is keen to secure improvements in the opportunities available for people to access the outdoors. Full consideration of the range of issues raised by the earlier review is taking place but more work is needed before taking any decisions on potential new measures to increase access.

John Griffiths AC: I wondered, Minister, if you could provide the Chamber with a greater degree of detail on the timelines, because I know that there is a great deal of frustration in terms of taking this work forward, which has been debated and considered for quite some time. Later on, we’ll be talking about how we get Wales more physically active and healthy, and I think a major part of that is opening up the great Welsh outdoors to a greater extent than is currently the case.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You’ll be aware we had a significant number of responses to the Green Paper—I think it was approaching 6,000, if I remember rightly—so it’s taking some time to have a look at all of them. But I did recently provide national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty with an additional just over £0.5 million so that they could look at their priority outdoor recreations. I think people do absolutely appreciate the outdoors, and it’s great to see. I know in my own constituency, I was in Maes y Pant quarry in Gresford, where you see these outdoor gyms coming up, and I’ve seen a few all over Wales. So, it’s really good to see things like that being done. I think we need to consider very carefully the way forward, and I would hope that I will be bringing something forward early next year.

Dai Lloyd AC: Further to that response, and on the same path as John Griffiths, I would like to press you further, because this is vitally important in terms of health. I know we’re talking about environmental issues here, but obviously there is an overlap here and there will be far-reaching benefit to the health service, because, as doctors, we’re always recommending people to go out walking. Well, it makes much easier if the paths are already there.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely. Dr Lloyd makes a very important point there, I think. You’ll be aware that we had an assessment of the health benefits of walking on the Wales coastal path back in 2014, and that concluded the economic value associated with improved health through walking on the coastal path was £18.3 million back then. So, absolutely, we can fully appreciate that is the case. And, again, we are doing significant work and putting significant funding into this issue.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Increasing access to the countryside could deliver significant benefits in improving the health and well-being of the public. However, concerns have been expressed that unrestricted access to the countryside could cause environmental and economic damage. Does the Cabinet Secretary recognise these concerns, and how will she ensure widening access will take into account the need to maintain a viable working countryside in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely, I recognise those concerns and you won’t be surprised that, in my portfolio, I get it from both sides. I think that is the absolute point: it’s about a balance between widening access and ensuring that we protect the environment also.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks, Minister, for your earlier answers, and I was pleased that you mentioned the Wales coastal path, which we’ve had since 2012, and that’s a great step forward. But, of course, many of the near 900 miles are blighted by coastal erosion, which was also mentioned in an earlier debate today—or question. I wondered what measures you could take to maintain access to the paths in light of the erosion, which particularly affects the path between Penarth and Barry in my area.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, that is obviously a very important piece of work and, at the moment, we are drawing together with local authorities the £150 million coastal-risk-management programme for that purpose.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response previously on this? The active travel plan, which I referred to yesterday, in fact, in relation to road safety around schools, also places an expectation on local authorities in Wales to start drawing up maps of proposed new networks for walking and cycling routes. In Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, as you probably know, there are already excellent facilities such as the Taff, Bargoed and BikePark Wales encouraging walking and cycling in that area. But can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: does she believe that the active travel plan requirements provide a golden opportunity for local authorities to look at potentially widening access to the great Welsh outdoors, in consultation with those already providing such activities?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely I do. The Act doesn’t sit within my portfolio—it sits within Rebecca Evans’s—but I’d be very happy to do some further work with Rebecca on that issue.

<p>Mobile Animal Exhibits </p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 7. What action is the Welsh Government taking in relation to mobile animal exhibits, including wild animals in travelling circuses? OAQ(5)0052(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The scientific literature review submitted earlier this year identified welfare considerations on the use of wild animals in travelling circuses and in corporate events, entertainment and educational settings. I’ve written to UK Ministers and I’m considering all options, and will make a statement before the Christmas recess.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister, and I’m aware that Wales is leading the way in this area and that your predecessor commissioned a report by Professor Stephen Harris to try and tackle some of these issues. Can you update us on what kind of considerations you are looking at with a view to improving the health and safety of such animals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank the Member for that question. Professor Harris identified in his report that a large number of captive wild animals are being used in, as I say, corporate entertainment and in educational settings. To be honest, that area concerns me more, because I think that we don’t know the numbers that are being used or anything about their welfare. You will have seen the approach taken in England. There’s been a recent announcement in Scotland that they’re going to introduce legislation in 2018. We don’t have the powers in this area, so I have written to Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Ministers to start those discussions to see what work we can take forward. And, as I say, I will bring forward a statement before Christmas.

Bethan Sayed AC: Cabinet Secretary, I was wondering if the Welsh Government would consider taking a more legislation-based approach to animal welfare in this Assembly. I remember in the last Assembly, sitting on the Petitions Committee, that we received a petition calling for an animal abuse register, which would obviously incorporate those in circuses, should it be required. The Minister at the time wrote to the committee to say that the Welsh Government wasn’t considering it then, but I’m wondering if you would at least commit to investigating the idea, given the benefits it could deliver not only for animal welfare but in actually profiling perpetrators in other circumstances. We know, if you do abuse an animal, you potentially may go on to abuse human beings in the future. I think it’s something that we should consider as very important.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I haven’t considered introducing legislation. We are looking at the different codes of practice we have for different animals, and certainly it’s something that I’ve asked the chief veterinary officer and officials to monitor. But I’m very happy to look at the point you raised; I think that’s a very interesting point about, as you say, perpetrators with animals. I certainly will be very happy to look at that, yes.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: The Welsh Conservatives are committed to ending the use of wild animals in circuses. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that laws relating to the welfare of animals, whether they are domestic pets, farm livestock or wildlife, would benefit from being consolidated into a single Act of this Assembly to ensure greater protection and enforcement in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think the way society treats its animals says a lot about it, and I’ve just been over—. I was very pleased to sponsor the RSPCA event bringing forward awards for community work going on across our public sector in relation to animal welfare, and it’s clear we are a nation of animal lovers. I haven’t looked at bringing forward one piece of legislation. As I mentioned in my previous answer to Bethan Jenkins, I am looking at the codes of practice, what needs to be reviewed, what needs to be refreshed, and we can certainly monitor them. You will have heard my earlier answer to Lynne Neagle regarding wild animals in circuses and mobile animal exhibits, because I think that is an area that we don’t know much about, and I really want to see a significant piece of work in that area.

<p>Fire at the South Wales Wood Recycling Site </p>

Bethan Sayed AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Natural Resources Wales investigation into the fire at South Wales Wood Recycling’s site near Heol y Cyw? OAQ(5)0039(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Natural Resources Wales await the outcome of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service and police investigation into the cause of the fire. They are reviewing the site’s management systems including those for stockpiling waste and will be increasing inspections of the facility.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for the answer. I’m afraid I missed the short debate by Huw Irranca-Davies on this issue, because I was chairing a cross-party group, but I’d like to put on record that I support all of his proposals, particularly those regarding directors and restricting legal challenges to stop notices, not least because it may be of benefit in other ways, such as in opencast mining. So, I was heartened by the Cabinet Secretary’s response when she said she would be considering at least some of those proposals in one form or another.The issue that I personally have from constituents in that particular area is that one of the senior members of Bridgend County Borough Council, in the cabinet, is also a company secretary to this particular firm. So, is there an argument that, if there is any refresh of regulations, that they should prevent those responsible for enforcement from being involved in any business that may have enforcement action taken against it? Will you look into this please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: We did have a very good short debate brought forward by my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, and other Assembly Members also contributed to it. I am going to meet with Huw Irranca-Davies. I came forward with some proposals, as did he, and I’m going to look at all options going forward.

Suzy Davies AC: Having spoken to residents in the area and Natural Resources Wales to discuss the ongoing situation, I think it’s clear that change is needed and I thank you for your response to the short debate last week. In the meantime, though, have you considered using your powers under section 61 of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 to issue a direction to Natural Resources Wales to use its own powers in a specified manner? Those powers do include the power to suspend a licence.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I haven’t specifically looked at that, but I absolutely agree with you that change is needed and, as I say, those discussions will start now. I’ve asked officials to make this a priority, because, clearly, the short debate, I think, threw up a lot of issues that we need to address. But you have my assurance that we will be looking to change things going forward.

David Rees AC: Thank you for the answers, Cabinet Secretary, and I also endorse the issues and the need to change regulations. But let’s look beyond the issue of the stockpile at Heol y Cyw, because there are many biomass plants that operate similar stockpiles—I’ve got two in my constituency, and a third one is proposed, one of the biggest in Wales. We want to also ensure that the planning regulations look very carefully at these proposals to ensure that, as planning development takes place, these conditions are placed upon any developer to ensure that this doesn’t happen within a situation like that.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely. I’m very happy to do that. It’s really important that the proposals we bring forward are appropriate and pertinent.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, given the number of incidents that have occurred at similar sites across Wales and concerns over the health implications of the large amounts of particulate matter generated in this type of facility, will the Welsh Government now consider introducing a moratorium on this type of plant? Will you also consider introducing tougher monitoring on existing licence holders and more stringent penalties for licence breaches in future?

Lesley Griffiths AC: As I said in my answer to Suzy Davies, I absolutely accept change is needed. I know you participated in the short debate, so you will have heard my answers. So, we’re looking at all options going forward.

<p>The National Grid (Ynys Môn)</p>

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on the environmental impact of the National Grid’s plans across Ynys Môn? OAQ(5)0050(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths AC: There are a number of statutory requirements in place to ensure the National Grid considers the environmental impact of its proposals across Ynys Môn. The National Grid opened its latest consultation last week on the north Wales connection project to connect Wylfa Newydd to the existing grid.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of the decision by National Grid to place cables in a tunnel under the Menai strait. We hope to see a new bridge constructed to go with the Britannia bridge. I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary would agree with me that there would be less environmental impact in placing those cables on that bridge, rather than actually building a bridge and digging a tunnel. But if the grid goes for the tunnel option in order to protect the natural environment of the Menai area, particularly the visual environment, isn’t the same thing true on the need to protect the natural environment of Anglesey as a whole, by undergrounding across the whole island?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The National Grid will need to complete an environment impact assessment. They need to be very sensitive to the environment, and that includes lines under the Menai strait, due to specific land designations. The First Minister is meeting the new chief executive of National Grid next week to discuss the work currently being undertaken, and that will include discussions about crossings of the Menai strait.

Mark Isherwood AC: National Grid launched a consultation into the proposed location of pylons and a tunnel under the Menai strait on 5 October, running until 16 December, and I’m sure you’ll join me in encouraging residents to respond to that consultation. But how do you propose to address concerns expressed by the Pylon the Pressure group in north Wales that the wording of the Welsh Government’s technical advice note 8 policy document, that ‘laying high voltage cables underground is usually 6-20 times more expensive than a pole-mounted system’is, I quote, ‘incorrect and misleading’?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I would encourage everyone who’s got an interest in this area to take part in the consultation. Obviously, it’s for the UK Government to consent to the National Grid’s north Wales reinforcement project, so, whilst we are involved in discussions, as I say, it is a matter for the UK Government to do that.

<p>Supporting the Welsh Coastline</p>

Nick Ramsay AC: 10. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s funding priorities for supporting the Welsh coastline? OAQ(5)0048(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Responding to the challenges our coastal communities face in adapting to a changing climate is a funding priority for supporting our Welsh coastline. This Government is working with local authorities preparing a £150 million programme of investment in coastal risk management.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Although, admittedly, my constituency has a very short coastline, namely the Black Rock picnic site—[Laughter.]—which I do enjoy, I’m sure you would agree with me the Welsh coastline belongs to all of us. Many of my constituents appreciate visiting the coastline along the rest of Wales. Recently, I attended the National Trust Welsh coast event in the Senedd, and at that event I discussed with the National Trust ways that the Welsh Government can support the National Trust in developing their interest in the Welsh coastline. Can you tell us what discussions, if any, you’ve had with the National Trust regarding financial priorities for protecting our coasts? Do you still stick to the policy of managed retreat that was believed in by many of your predecessors, rather than actually properly supporting and defending our coastline from threats of erosion and global warming?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I did think that when I saw the question, but I do know there are interests in coastal risks in Monmouthshire, and I quite agree with you about the Black Rock picnic site. I haven’t had any specific discussions with the National Trust on this issue, but I will check if my officials have, and write to the Member.

<p>A National Marine Plan for Wales</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 11. Will the Minister make a statement on a national marine plan for Wales? OAQ(5)0043(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. Officials are currently drafting the first ever Welsh national marine plan. I’ve recently agreed to launch the formal consultation by the summer of next year. The plan will set out our policy for the sustainable use of the marine area for the next 20 years.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you for that response, but I’m sure you would agree with me that this plan is long overdue. We’ve been awaiting it now for so long and it is disappointing that we won’t see it until next summer. But would the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the plan will be based on habitat or ecosystems management, and that that, more than the spatial plan, will drive this plan?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I do appreciate that we have been waiting for this, and I have—I think I said at the committee when I came for scrutiny that it is a priority, but it’s important we get it right. It’s very complex. It’s the first one—I think we’re being pioneering in Wales, having this plan. I think it’s very important to help us manage our seas in a much more integrated way, because we are seeing much more activity in the marine area. I also wanted to take into consideration the Hendry review, and Ken Skates and I met with Charles Hendry last month. So, that’s why it’s been slightly more delayed. If we can do it earlier than next summer, I’ll be very happy to do that, but we are looking at all options.

<p>Recycling in South Wales East</p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 12. Will the Minister make a statement on recycling projects in South Wales East? OAQ(5)0036(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Recycling in Wales is a success story, though there are challenges for some south-east Wales local authorities. Three local authorities failed to meet the recycling target for 2015-16. Each authority has been asked to explain why it failed to meet the target, and I will consider these explanations.

Steffan Lewis AC: I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. As she said, there is great variety in the local authorities in terms of their performance with recycling. Given the Government’s announcement on the future of local government in Wales, with collaboration and even regionalisation going to happen, does she foresee, in the near future, that recycling projects will happen at a regional level, or even at a national level, rather than seeing that diversity from one authority to another?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Probably, going forward, that’s something that we would need to consider. At the moment, I am more interested in looking at what’s happening on a local authority basis. I mentioned that it is a real success story, recycling in Wales. We are way ahead of the game, and if we were done on an individual basis in Europe we would be fourth in the league tables. I mentioned that three have failed to reach their targets, and I have written to all the council leaders asking why this is so I can consider that. But I do think that recycling in Wales is something we should celebrate.

<p>Energy Mix </p>

Caroline Jones AC: 13. Will the Minister outline how the Welsh government’s energy policies will lead to the diversification of the energy mix? OAQ(5)0045(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: During the transition to a low-carbon economy, our policies support a diverse energy mix in Wales, which delivers an affordable secure supply to protect the most vulnerable in society at a cost that does not threaten industry and jobs.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. My region has been blighted by the industrialisation of wind energy as a result of TAN 8 and is being targeted for unconventional gas extraction. We will also play host to the world’s first tidal lagoon. We need a truly diverse energy mix, but renewable technology should not be treated like twentieth century power plants. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that renewables have an important role to play in meeting our future energy needs, but that schemes have to be local community-backed, small-scale projects rather than large renewable power plants?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, we are supportive of appropriately sited large energy investments, and that includes our onshore renewables and marine, as well as the low-carbon environmental goods and services sector. Again, I think we’ve got a really good news story here in Wales, and I work with my Cabinet colleagues under the framework set out in the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 to plan the transition to a low-carbon society in Wales, and that includes actions to decarbonise our energy sector.

<p>Banning the Use of Snares </p>

Julie Morgan AC: 14. Will the Minister provide an update on banning the use of snares in Wales? OAQ(5)0047(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government’s code of practice on snares places the welfare of animals at its core. The code was published last year and provides clear guidance on the operation and inspection of fox snares. I would be prepared to consider taking further steps, should the code prove ineffective.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response, which is encouraging. I am sure she’s aware that, in Wales, more than 1,000 pets and wild animals are caught every day in snares, and 370,000 animals are snared every year, according to figures from the League Against Cruel Sports. Public opinion is clearly in favour of a ban. So, can I urge her to see how the code of practice is actually operating? Certainly, there is public demand for a ban on snares, so could she look into that, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I said in an earlier answer to Mohammad Asghar that the way we treat our animals really reflects on our society’s values. As the code of practice states, snares should only be used when other control methods are not available. I am very happy to assure the Member that I will monitor it, and if it’s not effective, I will look at further action. We are also discussing with stakeholders how the code is being implemented to give me that assurance.

<p>Flooding </p>

Mike Hedges AC: 15. Will the Minister make a statement on the actions being taken to stop rivers flooding? OAQ(5)0038(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: In my 28 June statement, I set out this Government’s approach and priorities for flood and coastal risk management. We are investing £55 million this year on reducing risk and maintaining our existing assets. This includes major work in St Asaph, Boverton, Risca, Newport and Talybont in Gwynedd.

Mike Hedges AC: First of all, Minister, can I highlight the success of the floodplain in Ynysforgan, which is not only in my constituency but is also half a mile away from where I live? It’s an area that used to be under an awful lot of flooding over a period of time, but that has now stopped because the floodplain has worked so successfully. Are there plans to bring the floodplains on to other rivers, so they can have the benefit that we’ve got in Ynysforgan?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Mike Hedges. It’s always really good to receive positive feedback on how our flood schemes are performing, and I think the £7 million Swansea scheme is an example of how flood investment can bring multiple benefits, and, certainly, having looked at it, it brings benefits for biodiversity, for instance, and amenity improvements.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.Roedd honno’n batrwm o sesiwn gwestiynau.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I now move to the next item on our agenda: questions of the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Lee Waters.

<p>Affordable Housing for Young Care Leavers</p>

Lee Waters AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on measures to help young care leavers access affordable housing? OAQ(5)0052(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. I am committed to doing all I can to meet the housing needs of young care leavers. Later this month I will launch a new accommodation framework for care leavers, which has been developed in partnership with Barnardo’s and Shelter Cymru to promote best practice.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Minister. Last June, the Public Policy Institute for Wales warned that many young care leavers face a lack of affordable housing and an earlier cliff edge to independent living than most young people. Their report called for a national framework for accommodation and support to improve consistency of provision across Wales. Could the Minister update us on how their report is being addressed?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his important supplementary question. The report from the Public Policy Institute for Wales has action we are taking, not only for care leavers, but on youth homelessness more generally—action already taken in line with the report’s recommendations, for example: the development of a care leavers accommodation framework, as I said, which I’ll be launching on 19 October, and continuing our drive to action to eradicate the use of bed and breakfasts for young people through strengthened guidance, joint working, and new voluntary arrangements, which will be the evidence and the improvements that are needed.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Cabinet Secretary, both you and I attended yesterday a young people’s forum organised by the children’s commissioner for 15 to 24-year-olds with experience of care, and not only was there a clear message coming from that forum that care leavers need help to access affordable housing, but they also need help to retain their housing. In a recent report by the Children’s Society, they called for care leavers to be exempted from paying council tax until they were 25. Now, although that focused on England, I’m sure we can see what the potential advantages would be here in Wales. Certainly, it would bolster the pathway plans required to prepare care leavers for the rest of their lives, really. So, is that something that the Cabinet Secretary will be willing to consider?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, I’ve got a working group looking at children in care settings and looked-after children. I will ask them to give me further advice on these issues. I do think that we are not doing what we can do for these young people, and we should join up the groups that are involved in the intervention programmes to give people a better start in life. These are very vulnerable young people and we need to step up to the plate.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, the Children’s Society report also referred to the fact that there’s very poor financial education and that many young people find it difficult to maintain their tenancies once they leave care. And, again, at the forum yesterday, it was quite clear that there was a call for support workers to be allowed to work alongside care leavers right up until the age of 25. That’s not something that is available at the moment here in Wales. What consideration have you given to extending the provision for support workers to work with young care leavers up to the age of 25, and is this something that could perhaps be added to the accommodation framework that you’ve referred to?

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, the care leavers accommodation framework will help organisations to work together to help children leaving care, to prepare them for independent living and ensure they find a suitable home. I am interested in the support mechanism following that. Through Supporting People we also provide £124 million to help vulnerable people access accommodation, including £13.7 million of that for care leavers and young people.

Question 2 [OAQ(5)0039(CC)] has been transferred for written answer by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Therefore, we now move to questions from party spokespersons, and first of all the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday we heard from your Government about how you’re going to tackle hate crimes. Unfortunately, the political climate is now such that hate crimes have been partly legitimised by the rhetoric coming from many politicians and elements of the media. Can you tell us today whether you believe that immigration to Wales has been a good thing in helping to develop and diversify our nation here in Wales?

Carl Sargeant AC: I agree with all the contents of the Member’s question.

Bethan Sayed AC: I didn’t have time to sit down, hardly. [Laughter.] I’m glad that you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary. The previous Westminster Government took a decision to deny public funds to many migrants, including those from A8 countries. This led to an Amnesty International report in 2008 noting it had led to women being unable to access refuges when fleeing violent relationships, a factor noted as significant in several murders and disappearances of women. The following year, a Shelter Cymru study on housing conditions of eastern European migrant workers found that because they had no recourse to public funds, there was significant homelessness, including pregnant women. We also know of cases where children were being threatened with being taken into care, and by 2010 around 1,000 children were in immigration detention centres. Do you regret New Labour’s approach of restricting support to the children of migrants, and how will you work to support this sector in the future?

Carl Sargeant AC: The agreement was going really well at first. [Laughter.] Can I say that the principle of her question is something that does concern me, and no access to public funds for individuals is something that I am looking at? I’ve got a new advisory group looking at the issues around domestic violence circumstances, and part of the investigation I’m asking them to look at is around that—and the funding element for refuge and for legal aid as well.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for that reply. Despite these traumatising stories that I’ve exemplified here today, Cabinet Secretary, there was no impact on opinion polls about immigration, with a substantial minority believing that no controls even existed, despite what I have just said. So, this shows that appeasement of the far right isn’t working for its own terms. The people who are supposedly being reassured by tough action don’t realise that tough action is actually taking place. This week you will have seen that Plaid Cymru, the SNP and the Greens united to issue a statement condemning the rhetoric coming from the Conservative Party last week, but your own party in Westminster has simply called for immigration to be reduced. Will you therefore today be different to your Westminster Labour colleagues and join with the Plaid Cymru and the SNP in condemning the negative rhetoric, and ensure that the Welsh Government takes a lead in tackling the myths about immigration?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her final question. We are the Labour Party in Wales and we are the Government in Wales and we have a very definitive line on hate crime. I intend to take the lead to drive forward the Welsh Government’s tackling hate crime framework for action. What I do hope that the Member will join us together in is condemning the actions of individuals and political parties that seek to gain favour by the hate crimes that I believe they cause in communities, and cause great upheaval to many people. I think we don’t have to look too far away from us to where that actually happens quite locally.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Yesterday, you told us that you were minded to phase out the Communities First programme, and will look afresh at how the Welsh Government can support resilient communities empowered with a strong voice in the decisions that affect their everyday lives. I shared with you a host of statutory and third sector organisation examples where they’re actually making things happen on the ground using co-production, which is not about austerity but is part of a global revolution with origins going back almost half a century. Given that these projects are already helping to deliver the building of resilient communities in Wales, can you provide us with your definition of what co-production means?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, I refer to my statement yesterday, which the Member has quoted from. I think we have to have a new offer for tackling issues to make communities resilient for the future. That’s what I outlined yesterday in my statement. The issue of introducing the 100,000 new job apprenticeships by this Welsh Labour Government is one that’s important to communities that he shares, and I share too. The issue of quality childcare, which is the best offer for working parents anywhere in the UK, is something that I hope he will join me in celebrating in serving the public that, again, we represent. There are many options where we need to tackle the deep-seated roots of poverty and enablement for the communities of the future. This is something I set out in my statement, and I will update Members in the new year.

Mark Isherwood AC: Co-production enables citizens and professionals to share power and work together in equal partnership, creating opportunities for people to access support when they need it and to contribute to social change, acknowledging that everyone is an expert in their own lives. I also yesterday quoted Oxfam Cymru when they said the Welsh Government must secure lasting change, embedding the sustainable livelihoods approach in all policy and service delivery in Wales, which means helping people identify the strengths and assets they already have in order to tackle to root problem preventing them from reaching their potential.Given, again, that this approach has been embraced by some Members of the Welsh Government and should be central to new programme development and delivery, can you provide us with your understanding of the meaning of the term ‘strength-based approach’?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think there are many quality projects out in our communities, not led by Communities First but many of the organisations that the Member referred to today and yesterday, and I support those. What we have to do is join up those programmes with actions and interventions by Government and third sector bodies to make sure that we impact most on the people in need of support. So, I’m not dismissing the programmes that the Member raises—actually, I think we can build on those programmes, and working with ourselves they can have a better offer for our community.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, I hope in going forward you will embrace the definition of the strength-based approach, which is about moving away from a system in which people have their needs assessed and addressed by social services departments and other agencies to a system that protects an individual’s independence, resilience, ability to make choices and well-being by supporting their strengths in a way that allows them to lead and be in control of their independent day-to-day life. I hope that these concepts will be central to driving forward the change that we all earnestly seek.Again, finally, in a similar context, during the session with the Children, Young People and Education Committee before recess, you stated that Welsh Government would be refreshing its child poverty strategy during this Assembly. There are around 200,000 young children in Wales living in poverty—a higher rate than the UK, England and Scotland levels. What consideration will you give to the Children’s Society’s ‘Good Childhood Report 2016’, which shows that using a child-centred material deprivation index can explain more about variations in a child’s well-being than the traditional measure of household income? Will you consider using these approaches in your refreshed strategy?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful to the Member for raising that very important issue. I think what we should look at are the correct indicators, and I will take note of that report when we do refresh the document. I think it’s important that we look at the detail behind that and how we are able to influence change in communities, particular around young people, going forward—they are our future generation.

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. The ministerial determination to close John Summers High School in 2017 was announced by Kirsty Williams in August 2016. It is a matter of record that John Summers High School has served more Traveller children than any other school within Flintshire and possibly across Wales. Can the Minister give assurances that the education needs of the Traveller community within Flintshire will be met? Will he give assurances that he will meet with the community to ensure that any measures taken meet with their needs?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful for the question. This is a constituency issue for me also, Llywydd, but I will base my response as a Minister. I have had correspondence with Flintshire council and I’ve also had correspondence with residents of that area. I think it is important that the transition is a matter for the local authority and I have spoken to the Cabinet Secretary for Education on these very issues. It is important to that community that there is a resilient educational system fit for that community.

Michelle Brown AC: Over the last few years, many of the main police stations in our towns, certainly in north Wales, have been closed. Follow the signpost to the police and you’ll wind up at a phone on the wall. What representations have you made to the police and crime commissioners and police authorities to ensure that the police service is visible, accessible and effectively builds relationships with local communities?

Carl Sargeant AC: I meet with the police commissioners on a regular basis and I’ve already had two meetings since becoming Minister responsible for communities. But the Member should be aware that policing is non-devolved to this institution.

Michelle Brown AC: It’s still a community issue though, whether we have that easy access to the police, and obviously Welsh Government does have an input to how much access the local community does have to the police, and that the police service be visible and easy to find.

Carl Sargeant AC: I have, as I said, regular meetings with the police and crime commissioners. One of the Welsh Labour positive commitments was around introducing 500 police community support officers to our communities across Wales, which has been very welcome across all of our communities. The matter is a matter for the UK Government, and it is a non-devolved function, but I recognise the issue that, actually, the work that the police do in our communities is valued by many.

<p>Access to Play</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to play for children in Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0043(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government places great value on play and its importance in the lives of children, including the impact on well-being, health, and future life chances.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you. I was pleased last week to be able to attend the opening of two accessible play areas in my constituency, at Cilfynydd and Glyncoch. In both cases, improvements have been the result of well-supported community campaigns and welcome investment from Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council. Article 31 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child sets out a right to play. How is the Welsh Government engaging with partners, like local authorities, to make sure they have play areas that are accessible for all children?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’d like to congratulate RCT on their investment in your local community too. The Welsh Government has placed a statutory duty on local authorities to assess and, where practical, secure sufficient play opportunities that meet the needs, such as access and inclusion of children and their families. We have produced a toolkit and also fund Play Wales to support them in meeting this duty.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, obviously, one of the main planks of public health is to get participation in sport levels up in Wales, and for young people to participate in healthy activity, wherever that might be. One of the things that many sports clubs are struggling with, across my region of South Wales Central, is obviously pitch fees and facility fees. I appreciate this is an issue for local government, but here you almost have a policy objective colliding with decisions taken in county hall.We understand that there does have to be a charge, because these facilities cost, but where great concern comes in to play is where a lot of these clubs are citing examples in other areas with a disparity in the costs, very often in the same local authority area. How are you working with Cabinet colleagues to drive forward a more coherent policy that links up the public health messages with community participation, and, in particular, local government charges for community facilities?

Carl Sargeant AC: The Member raises an important point about accessibility, and price can sometimes be a contributing factor to people not being able to access these issues. I will take this up with the relevant Minister, to have a discussion with her. But we did legislate last year for the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which looks at long-term improvement in the well-being of all. This will be something that authorities will have to demonstrate that they’re considering in their actions in relation to access to play too.

<p>Housing Regeneration Schemes</p>

Hannah Blythyn AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on housing regeneration schemes in Wales? OAQ(5)0050(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for Delyn for her question. Our Vibrant and Viable Places areas are taking a whole-place approach to regeneration, and are contributing positively to the housing agenda in Wales, in terms of increasing supply, improving standards and improving the energy of homes.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you’ll be aware of SHARP, Flintshire County Council’s strategic housing and regeneration programme, the first of its kind in Wales to pioneer ambitious housing investment plans. The council’s leading by example on how to tackle housing shortages, including, for the first time in many, many years, building new council homes. In my own constituency, Flint town centre’s been transformed as part of the Flint master plan, which will see 30 new council houses and over 60 affordable properties being built. Will you, Cabinet Secretary, join me in recognising the lead Flintshire County Council has taken on this, and will you urge others to take similar steps across the country?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank her for the question. I am familiar with the SHARP programme. I’m very pleased to see the excellent work by Flintshire council. Councillor Bernie Attridge is leading the charge in terms of delivery in that area and I’m very grateful that local authorities are starting to build a council house programme again. That, tied in with the abolition of the right to buy, will start to generate the stock that we long remember, which is quality housing, in the public sector, for people in need, and, in particular, recognising the good work that’s going on in her constituency.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, clearly, right to buy doesn’t build new houses and the welcome but very late abolition of the housing revenue account subsidy system only enables limited borrowing. Housing regeneration isn’t just about bricks and mortar; it’s about people and communities. How, therefore, will you ensure that local authorities that retained their stock, often because tenants were scared with misinformation, can learn from—yes, you know—the good work of particularly places like Cartrefi Conwy and Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd, which have hosted events that I’ve attended—tenants events—that are showing how the wider regeneration of the community is helping to support people to tackle the things holding them back and to live independent and full lives?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m really impressed with the housing sector and their ability to diversify, and not just build in bricks and mortar, but resilient communities. That also goes for registered social landlords and stock transfer, but also the local authorities that have kept their stock. And I don’t believe that the case the Member may be referring to was misinformation; actually it was the choice of the people. That was the important thing. They chose to keep their stock and they’re doing a very good job of that and building more council homes in the areas that are needed.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I’d certainly echo that, Cabinet Secretary, and certainly in the case of Cardiff council. I just wanted to revisit the issue of empty homes, because I know that the Government’s done a great deal of work to try and get empty homes back into use. But there are still over 20,000 empty homes that could be providing homes for people who desperately need them. And as it only costs around £30,000 to bring an empty home back into use, it’s clearly a lot less than building a new one. Unfortunately, house builders are averse to restoring empty homes because there’s not as much profit in it, and instead they want to build rabbit hutches, often, instead of protecting the traditional vernacular of an area. So, I wondered what more can the Government do, along with local authorities, to ensure that every house is a wanted home.

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, the Member raises and recognises the important intervention we have had with our empty homes scheme, and we have certainly been delivering on that. I also mentioned the other week the 20,000 homes that we are seeking to build, with a mixture of tenures and tenancies. I also think empty homes will go a long way to increase the supply, in addition to the 20,000 homes, and we’ll continue to do that. I believe that they are generally of good stock that just need refurbishing, and that’s something that I’ve asked my team to give me some further advice on.

<p>People who are Deaf or Hard of Hearing</p>

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on ensuring that people who are deaf or hard of hearing are not discriminated against? OAQ(5)0054(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: People who are deaf or hard of hearing are protected against discrimination by the Equality Act 2010. The Act also requires that public bodies must have due regard to advancing equality of opportunity and fostering good relationships between people who are deaf or disabled and those who are not.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Action on Hearing Loss have found that 84 per cent of the 575,000 people in Wales who are deaf or having hearing loss difficulties feel that this obviously makes it harder for them to access vital services. Conwy County Borough Council, of course, has the highest proportion in Wales, at 23 per cent, with 27,000 people who require such appropriate support. You may be aware that in terms of the North Wales Deaf Association, the provision funding has been cut. I have written to the authority very recently, and very politely, to request the reinstatement of this much needed funding to support this lifeline. Will you, in your role, please write also to support our quest to have that funding reinstated?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her question. We are funding Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, working with Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru, to train and support people with sensory loss to share their personal experiences with service providers in health, social services and the housing sector. An accessible and bilingual virtual sensory toolkit will be created to help organisations be more responsive to the needs of people with sensory losses—over £144,000 over three years from 2014 to 2017. I hope the Member will welcome that, and also, in her letter to the local authority, that she may mention the investment we are currently making as Welsh Government.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I declare an interest firstly as president of Swansea hard of hearing group, and I also have a sister who is profoundly deaf? It’s very easy to discriminate in employment: you just need to make answering the phone identified as part of the job and immediately somebody who’s deaf is unable to apply. The one thing that would make a huge difference would be parity of esteem for first-language sign language with English and first-language Welsh, so that people who are deaf have the same opportunities. Will the Cabinet Secretary investigate this?

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you for raising that issue with me, Mike. This Government formally recognised British Sign Language as a language in its own right in January 2004. Since then, we have supported training to increase the number of qualified interpreters in Wales and ensured that legislation, policies and programmes across this Welsh Government recognise the importance of accessible communication to everyone. He is right to raise that issue in the Chamber today.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Contacting public bodies through traditional methods, such as call centres, can be a very difficult and frustrating experience for us all at times, but of course it can be even more difficult for people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Therefore, what is the Government doing to ensure that there are alternative ways of making contact available for people who are deaf or hard of hearing in order to ensure that they are not stopped from contacting public services?

Carl Sargeant AC: I agree. The Member is right to raise that particular issue and it can be very difficult and that’s why we are investing in the toolkit—an accessible and bilingual virtual sensory toolkit—to help organisations be more responsive to the needs of people with sensory loss.

<p>Flying Start</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on Flying Start? OAQ(5)0040(ERA)

Carl Sargeant AC: The Flying Start programme continues to be a priority for this Government, giving children living in some of our most disadvantaged communities the best possible start in life.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? Flying Start has made a huge improvement to life opportunities for many of my constituents. It means that children are starting school at or close to their chronological age. Whilst I believe it should be based on communities, not the vagaries of the Office for National Statistics-created super-output areas, will the Minister reiterate his support for Flying Start?

Carl Sargeant AC: Indeed, I will. Flying Start remains a priority in 2015-16. The programme supported over 38,000 children and their families and exceeded our target of 36,000, which we’d allocated. It is a great programme with great staff and great outcomes; long may it continue.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: There are clearly concerns about the qualifying criteria for Flying Start and the geographical focus of that, and it was a concern levied against Communities First as well with electoral wards and potentially one side of the road being in and the other side of the road being out. I touched on this yesterday in your announcement on the proposed children’s zones. Could you confirm that the children’s zones won’t be using such a blunt approach? Could you be clear as to whether the proposed zones will be areas where people will have to live within in order to access the service, or whether services will be provided in certain zones that anyone can access?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, as I said to the Member yesterday—there are two responses to the Member—firstly, Flying Start and Families First: what I’m seeking to do is to give more flexibility around those schemes financially, and therefore we can start picking up people from outside the area-based approach, people in need who require those services, and hopefully we’ll be able to roll that programme out. The other element of children’s zones is a growing programme where we’re looking to pilot different schemes. So, some will be school based, some will be community-area based and we’ll have to see which works best. I’ve started discussions already today with other organisations seeking to do similar things. So, the NSPCC, Public Health Wales and National Offending Management Service teams are all looking to create an ACE-style hub. We’re going to see how that works and who can deliver better in those areas. So, I can’t give you a definitive answer today, but actually we’re going to trial what works best.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer to Llyr Gruffydd. I’m very pleased to hear that you want to widen access to Flying Start. I do believe that it makes a difference and it is a shame that so many people have been excluded from accessing the support that’s available through Flying Start to date. But can you give us a timescale by which you expect to implement this decision that you appear now to have made, because I think it is important that this happens sooner rather than later?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, we’ve started on the discussion about the broader principle of Communities First and, as indicated yesterday, the narrative of where we want to see the division moving, to Flying Start and Families First having flexibility, will of course be based around the budget time. I’m hopeful that, on the basis that you are confident about this programme, you will be supporting the budget in a few weeks’ time in order for me to implement this and make the changes. That is what I’m seeking.

<p>YMCA</p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 7. Will the Minister outline what support the Welsh Government gives to YMCAs in Wales? OAQ(5)0050(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Help and advice are available to YMCAs through the £4.4 million core funding I provide to third sector organisations in Wales.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. The YMCA in Neath saw 27,000 visits last year, as part of a network of YMCAs across Wales, which together supply supported accommodation, training, education and fitness and well-being as well as a range of other services. Many have operated on the basis of clusters for collaboration purposes. Does he welcome that and what further support can the Welsh Government give for that principle?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful to the Member for raising the good work that the YMCA does across the UK and, indeed, in his constituency. I’m certainly aware of the many services that are provided. Unfortunately, I’m unable to directly support all 33,000 third sector organisations in Wales, but the YMCA currently already benefits from indirect funding and support from the Welsh Government. However, I do thank the Member for raising that issue with me today, raising the profile of the YMCA, and I wish them luck in developing more services in your community and in others.

Suzy Davies AC: The YMCA, of course, embraces young people from all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds and has a very good record of working with other groups. I hope that they will look at the example of Matt’s Cafe in Swansea, which works with a number of supermarkets to take unsold food to use in a community cafe. Considering that it was announced yesterday that the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board threw away 230,000 meals last year and that health boards in Wales dispose of an average 3,000 meals per day, what discussions are you having with your Cabinet colleagues about limiting food wastage through supporting those community organisations such as YMCA and Matt’s Cafe? You can deal with the demand, even if your Cabinet Secretary colleague deals with the supply problem.

Carl Sargeant AC: I think it’s an innovative approach to managing our waste streams as well. I will talk to the Cabinet Secretary for the environment on that very issue.

<p>The Early Years</p>

John Griffiths AC: 8. What are the next steps that the Welsh Government will take to improve the early years experience of children in Wales? OAQ(5)0047(CC)[R]

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. A review and refresh of ‘Building a Brighter Future’, our early years and childcare plan, is under way to ensure our policies and programmes continue to support and improve the lives of children and their families across Wales.

John Griffiths AC: Yes, Cabinet Secretary, obviously some children are very fortunate to be born into warm, loving, supportive, secure and stable families, but too many children are not in that fortunate position. I wonder if you could say something about Welsh Government policy on early language acquisition, which I think is vital to life chances, particularly in terms of disadvantaged children. So, what will we do to support the workforce to a greater extent than is currently the case? What will we do to support parents more strongly and what will we do in funding terms? If you could say a little bit more about children zones in addition to your earlier remarks in that context, I’d be very grateful.

Carl Sargeant AC: The Member raises a very important issue, and yesterday was an example of where I spelt out that there are many programmes that we need to do and wrap around the family and the young person. The adverse childhood experiences profiling, as I suggested in yesterday’s statement, is an important one, where we tackle the very issues that give instability to a family or to an individual. If we can tackle those issues, we know that the outcomes are much better, both morally and fiscally, for Government long term.The issues around language acquisition are important ones. I’ve met with the language therapists and we’re looking at how we can build that into the system of making sure that we give young people the best start in life. I believe absolutely that if we make our investments in the early years, it will save us lots of money in the long term. My Cabinet colleagues are somewhat coming to my way of thinking too, and I’m very grateful for that.

Angela Burns AC: Cabinet Secretary, I wondered how confident you are of the monitoring system that looks at the change of ownership in nurseries because, of course, a business can easily be sold to another business or individual who may not have the appropriate skills and understanding or even the appropriate checks in place, and, even if it is a hands-off transfer, I still think we need to be reassured that there is a strong monitoring system in place to ensure that some of our youngest and most vulnerable individuals are totally protected.

Carl Sargeant AC: I would agree with the Member. I will write to the Member in order to give her confidence that we have a system in place to deal with the very issue that she raises.

<p>Support for Veterans </p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 9. How will the policies contained in the Welsh Government’s ‘Taking Wales Forward’ programme improve support for veterans in Wales? OAQ(5)0037(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: The policies in our programme for government reflect the ongoing dialogue with our key partners to ensure we provide effective services that meet our veterans’ needs.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for the reply, Minister. The programme for government makes a number of pledges to improve support services for veterans. However, there is no mention of veteran cards, which, under other proposals, would provide free bus travel and free access to leisure centres and Cadw sites. They would give priority access to NHS treatment and home adaptations, if needed, as a result of in-service injury too. Will the Cabinet Secretary reconsider introducing the veteran card in Wales please?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m very grateful for the Member’s question and the good intention with which it was meant. I would like to remind the Member though that options to develop a veterans identity card were considered by the task and finish group, made up of representatives of our armed forces expert group. They concluded that the value of the introduction of a veterans ID card would be limited. Following this recommendation, it was agreed to publicise and promote the existing defence privilege card as the preferred option. That is what we do.

Question 10, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Question 10 (OAQ(5)0042(CC)) not asked.

Question 11, Vikki Howells.

<p>Regeneration in the Cynon Valley</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 11. What are the Minister’s priorities for promoting regeneration within the Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0044(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her question. We are supporting a range of regeneration programmes across the Valleys. This includes funding for the Aberdare town centre partnership to promote the town centre and support activities that increase vibrancy and viability.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The town centre partnership fund has brought lots of benefits, including to Aberdare in my constituency. When I speak to people in many other town and village centres, they feel that they too could also benefit from support. Would Welsh Government have any plans for looking at what lessons can be drawn from the partnership fund, to develop targeted support so that towns and villages such as Hirwaun, Mountain Ash, Penrhiwceiber and Abercynon in my constituency can also benefit and thrive?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful for the Member’s question. We’re never short of regeneration programmes that people wish to be developed for their communities, and I’m grateful for the recognition of the work that’s going on in her community directly. We will be looking to evaluate and learn lessons from this programme, and the findings will be considered for future policies and will be shared with our stakeholders. I’m pleased to hear of the improvements being made in Aberdare and welcome her comments today.

<p>The Voluntary Sector </p>

David Rees AC: 12. Will the Minister identify the Welsh Government’s priorities in the Fifth Assembly for supporting the voluntary sector across Wales? OAQ(5)0051(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I appreciate the vital, important work the third sector is doing in our communities. Our priorities are ensuring we have a thriving third sector with a strong infrastructure to support their work, growing the volunteer base and ensuring the third sector has a voice in helping and shaping communities.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Again, the voluntary sector and the volunteers are crucial. In my constituency, volunteers work in community libraries, community centres and support services across the town and constituency to ensure that some of those services remain within those communities. Those individual volunteers are crucial to the work of that sector, and some of the people are doing the same jobs on many occasions. What’s the Welsh Government doing to actually encourage more volunteers to come forward, to ensure we spread that workload, to get more involved in the communities and ensure that those services can continue, because we’re burning out the people who are doing it now?

Carl Sargeant AC: Indeed, and we should congratulate and work with the volunteers in his constituency and in many across Wales—they do a fantastic job. The third sector scheme includes a commitment to develop a new volunteering policy, which has been developed through a working group established by the third sector partnership council. The policy sets out the roles of Welsh Government, volunteer-involving organisations and third sector bodies, including volunteers themselves.

Simon Thomas AC: David Rees makes an important point, I think, that many of the volunteers who are asked to pick up the pieces when local authorities withdraw services are themselves service users, and very often carers as well. A recent example that has come to my attention is Newtown day centre, which is proposed to be closed for logistical and financial reasons, and the burden that then puts on the local volunteer workforce. So, what can the Welsh Government do to ensure that there’s a more integrated approach to the maintenance at least of some of these council-funded and council-supported centres, and also not only recruiting new volunteers, but ensuring that volunteers who are committed have respite care themselves, if you like, so that they can then continue to contribute to their society?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think the Member is right to raise the issue of asset transfer and community ownership. I think what we’re trying to do as a Government is enable communities to be able to take things over and to understand the risks as well, because many of these organisations that are moving from public ownership to community ownership are sometimes very difficult to run financially and physically. It’s something that I’ve asked my team to work with the Wales Council for Volutary Action on to see if there’s a programme that we can use to help communities become more resilient in that space.

<p>Homelessness</p>

Dawn Bowden AC: 13. Will the Minister make a statement on tackling homelessness in Wales? OAQ(5)0046(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 ensures everyone who is homeless or at risk of becoming homeless gets the help they need. Statistics show homelessness was successfully prevented last year for 65 per cent of all households threatened with homelessness. We are supporting local authorities to build further on this very positive start.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. I’m certainly pleased to learn that those bodies and organisations responsible for addressing homelessness in Wales have given positive feedback on the results of the changes brought about under the Housing (Wales) Act 2014. For my part, I’m certainly encouraged by how these initiatives have assisted me in supporting constituents faced with homelessness in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. I guess a comparison can be drawn from the published figures in the significant difference in success rates between local authority areas in terms of successful prevention outcomes—successful homelessness relief outcomes and positive discharges. Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, what measures are in place to enable local authorities across Wales to draw on best practice, where this is evidenced by the outcome figures?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, I’ve asked for all local authorities and interested groups to review the figures that are provided for them so that there’s a more standardised approach to the measurement of this. I am encouraged by the 65 per cent, but I just want to make sure that we are all measuring the same things. The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 ensures everybody who is homeless or is at risk of becoming homeless gets the help they need. I will look further in terms of seeking advice from my officials on how we intend to pursue this policy and increase our impact, as we move forward.

<p>Tenants’ Rights </p>

Adam Price AC: 14. What assessment has the Minister made of the different rights afforded to tenants of a local authority and tenants of a registered social landlord? OAQ(5)0048(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: A full assessment of the rights of tenants of social landlords was undertaken during the development of the Renting Homes (Wales) Bill. The rights are broadly similar, although some differences exist, such as the right to buy and the right to acquire; other differences are being addressed through the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016.

Adam Price AC: Well, may I ask the Minister to review this again because we’ve seen, in the merger of Tai Cantref and Wales & West Housing, a process that was entirely deficient, in my view, for a number of reasons, but, in this context, because of a total lack of consultation with tenants? He made reference earlier to the process of stock transfer. A ballot is held in terms of stock transfers, but, in this case, there was no effort whatsoever to garner the views of tenants. Well, the Minister says ‘no’, but I can tell him that there was just a brief section in a circular that went to tenants despite the fact that, as he should know, under the Housing Act 1985, secure tenants do have the statutory right to consultation, which isn’t true, of course, of assured tenants—another contrast. So, the process was entirely deficient. Can I ask him to give the same rights to RSL tenants as exist for local authority tenants?

Carl Sargeant AC: I can assume by the questioning of the Member that he disagrees with the outcome. Unfortunately, that was the outcome. The decision to merge and the choice of merger partners was a unanimous decision taken by the Cantref board. The Member said there was no consultation and then there was a little bit of consultation. Consultation with tenants did take place—Cantref wrote to all its tenants, encouraging them to respond with any concerns. Meetings were also held with tenant groups. If the Member is convinced that is incorrect, then he should write to me with the detail.

<p>Modern Slavery</p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 15. How will the policies contained in the Welsh Government’s ‘Taking Wales Forward’ programme fight modern slavery in Wales? OAQ(5)0038(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: As set out in our programme for government, we are committed to working with our police and crime commissioners and other partners on a range of issues. In this context, we will continue to tackle slavery in Wales, raising awareness, supporting victims and helping to bring perpetrators to justice.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much for that answer, Minister. The fact is that there are more than 13,000 slaves in this country, and I don’t know how many in Wales. Are you actually engaged with the police? There is a general perception that they haven’t got the resources to tackle slavery, which also contains all sorts of slavery—there are sex slaves, cheap labour and God knows how many different social problems involved with it. Are there enough resources in your department for the police to tackle this slavery in Wales, and to eradicate it forever?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, I share the Member’s concern around this. The Member will be aware that the issue around policing is a non-devolved issue, but we are the only part of the country with an anti-slavery co-ordinator, which we introduced here in Wales. He works extremely hard and there’s a conference coming up in the next week or two bringing partners together to tackle these issues. I do raise this with the police in regard to the great work that they do there, but this is a hidden crime and we urge people in all communities, if they’re aware of this hidden slavery, to report it to the police.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Active Travel

We now move to item 3, a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on Lee Waters to move the motion.

Motion NDM6089 Lee Waters, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Huw Irranca-Davies, John GriffithsSupported by David Melding, Janet Finch-SaundersTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the multiple health and wellbeing benefits of physical activity.2. Notes that only 35 per cent of Welsh children are getting the recommended hour of physical activity that they need every day.3. Recognises the potential of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 to raise levels of physical activity amongst all age groups.4. Calls on the Welsh Government to fully engage communities in identifying the new routes that would link up local destinations and would be most likely to be well used.

Motion moved.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I’m pleased to be among many Members from across the Chamber who’ve come together for today’s debate to ensure that we fulfil the potential of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. As the motion notes, there are multiple health and well-being benefits from physical activity, and we are facing a ticking time bomb of obesity. We are finally acknowledging the all too often hidden affliction of mental health, and there are wider challenges: the damage inflicted on our natural environment from rising carbon emissions contributed to by our over-reliance on cars; the social injustice of locating services under the assumption that every family in Wales has access to a car, forcing the poorest 20 per cent to spend a quarter of their income on running a car. We commonly talk about fuel poverty applying to households who spend more than 10 per cent of their income on fuel as being in fuel poverty, but we don’t talk about transport poverty, which hits the poorest hardest. There are few interventions that can impact across such broad and pervasive challenges, and active travel is one of them. You may not be able to persuade people who take no physical activity to go into a gym or onto a football pitch, but creating an environment that encourages active travel, which builds activity into their everyday routines, is achievable. There’s considerable potential to change the way we take short journeys. Twenty per cent of car trips are for journeys of under one mile, the kind of journey that can be made in 20 minutes on foot. And half of all car journeys—half—are for journeys of under five miles. This is the distance of a typical 30-minute bike trip on a traffic-free path, like the millennium coastal path in my constituency, or the Taff trail here in Cardiff bay. But there are barriers, not least a physical environment that has encouraged car use and discouraged walking and cycling for short journeys. The Foresight panel on obesity coined the term ‘obesogenic’ to describe the environment we’ve built up, which they reckon will result in 60 per cent of men being obese by 2050. Now, the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 can play a significant part in challenging that. It has the potential to be one of the most radical of the laws introduced by the Welsh Government, and the single most important public health intervention we can introduce to reduce pressure on the NHS. Data from a long series of studies have shown the profound benefits of encouraging physical activity, from reduced risk of coronary heart disease, cancer, stroke, type 2 diabetes, to improved concentration, confidence and the alleviation of stress. But one of the challenges for implementing this agenda is that it doesn’t fall to public health professionals to implement, but to transport professionals. And, in transport terms, this is a marginal agenda. For 50 years, transport policy has been dominated by creating more space for cars and engineering roads to allow cars to travel faster. Pedestrians and cyclists have been literally pushed to one side. So, the challenge for implementing this is to change that culture and we shouldn’t underestimate how difficult that will be. Back in February, the enterprise committee rightly pointed out that the Act needs determined leadership to succeed. But just as leadership at a ministerial level is necessary—and I know that Rebecca Evans and Ken Skates are deeply committed to this agenda—we need to see leadership at every level to set the example, to normalise the behaviour, as it was normal only a few generations ago.We need leadership from parents: instead of clicking their kids into the backs of cars for short journeys—sometimes very short—instead to make the effort to walk. We need leadership from highway engineers, safety auditors and transport planners, to build in convenient welcoming routes as a matter of course. The national cycle network, for example, developed by the green transport charity, Sustrans, aspires to design routes that would feel safe for an unaccompanied 12-year-old on a bike. How many of our current cycle lanes or shared-use paths can truthfully pass that test?We need leadership from GPs who, instead of routinely prescribing pills, have the confidence to encourage people who are overweight or stressed or suffering one of the number of conditions that are contributed to by physical inactivity, to get active. We need leadership from schools. Active children learn better. Bike Week is all well and good, but how do we make every day Walk to School Day, every week Bike Week? For employers, there’s ample evidence that workers who cycle to work take less sick leave, and investing in showers and cycle parking will be repaid in productivity. So, just as there are multiple benefits from getting this right, there are multiple responsibilities for getting it right too. I want to focus on what I consider to be the primary responsibility, and one that is mentioned in the motion, and that’s ensuring the full engagement of communities.The target audience for this agenda is not people who walk and cycle—they do it already. It’s people who do not. A coloured strip of tarmac down a busy road that suddenly disappears under parked cars will not do the trick. We only have to look to the streets that have tried that to see it. The temptation is for councils to build where it’s easiest, not where the potential for use is greatest. This is an ambitious agenda; it will be difficult and it will take time. But we need to know where people want to go—the routes that they’d be tempted to try. In some communities, it might be the daily trip to work that gets them on their bikes, in others, a Saturday trip to the local leisure centre. We need to know about wider interventions too, beyond infrastructure, that’ll encourage them: cycle training on real road conditions for adults and children, easy-to-read maps and signage, and walking buses for kids to get to school. What’s crucial is we won’t know until we ask. Yet, in the most recent process to establish and map all existing routes, most authorities did the minimum—an online questionnaire for the statutory minimum of 12 weeks. Across Wales, just 300 people took part. That’s less than 0.01 per cent of Wales’s population. It’s essential that wider voices are heard, and, if this Act is going to be the success I know it can be, that involves targeting people who don’t currently walk and cycle. I applaud the joint initiative by Sustrans Cymru, Living Streets, Cycling UK and Welsh Cycling to launch a simple, easy-to-use web tool to make it easy for people to suggest new and upgraded routes. But let’s be imaginative how we use it—at school gates and trampoline parks, at cinemas and pop-up venues, in workplaces and GP surgeries. These active travel plans will have a 10 to 15-year lifespan and will be linked to future Welsh Government funding. If we don’t get this initial consultation right, it’ll be hard-fought resources down the drain. The details really matter. Five hundred thousand pounds can be spent on a new route, but an ill-considered gate or barrier can mean it won’t be used, and I’ve seen many routes fall victim to this. That’s why it’s important we build challenge into the system. Local people should be easily able to challenge and suggest improvements to local councils. The Welsh Government needs to beef up its advice, so it can challenge the plans submitted to it by local authorities. We’ve seen from the first round of maps that there’s plenty of room for challenge. We’ve got to get this right. The Government has appointed respected place designer Phil Jones to head the expert group to agree the statutory guidance to accompany the Act, and it’s very good.Those at the front line now need training and support to make sure they can apply it properly, and the key recommendation of that active travel Act design guidance is ‘good consultation at early stages’ to help ‘avoid poor decisions’. As it says:‘The more opportunity people have to influence and shape walking and cycling schemes for their local area, the more likely they will be to use them.’Getting this on the statute book, Llywydd—the first piece of legislation to complete the journey from a petition to receiving the royal seal—was the easy bit. This is a radical piece of legislation and the commitment this Government has shown to an all-too-often neglected agenda should be applauded. But this landmark law will only work if it is implemented radically, and that’s why I’m delighted to open this debate today. Diolch.

Dai Lloyd AC: I’m pleased to participate in this very important debate, and I thank Lee Waters for opening the debate in a colourful manner, and explaining the principles underpinning the debate, particularly on the importance of the active travel Act and the need for us to think not only that the legislation is in place, but that we all should actually act upon that legislation, because it’s down to us as a society to adhere to those principles and to take action. Because, as I have said in the past here, keeping fit is crucially important—being fit is crucially important. Some of you, I’m sure, will remember these figures, because I’ve actually referred to them twice in the past month: if you are fit and healthy, then the level of sugar in your blood is 30 per cent lower, the cholesterol level is 30 per cent lower than if you weren’t fit, your blood pressure is 30 per cent lower than if you weren’t fit, and your weight in general is reduced by being physically fit. As I’ve already mentioned, there’s no tablet on earth that can bring those kinds of benefits. Also, in responding to one of those issues relating to that we, as GPs, are far too willing to prescribe tablets, well, this is the solution. This is a way forward—keeping fit—that can replace tablets and is far more effective than a common tablet. We need to take 10,000 steps per day, and that is easily achievable, even in this place, by not using the lifts, for example. Of course, it’s not just those who are physically fit that we’re talking about. There are also those who have long-term illnesses. Even when you have chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or another lung condition, or a heart condition, if you get fit, even though you have those chronic conditions, it can also improve your quality of life. Your symptoms are reduced. You are not as short of breath, in becoming fit, although you do have those problems with your lungs or your heart. That’s the basis of those programmes that we have in our hospitals and GP surgeries—pulmonary rehabilitation and cardiac rehabilitation. They make people more confident and fitter in general so that they can cope with their long-term conditions.Therefore, it is a challenge, and this agenda demands that we all tackle this in earnest now because we know about the obesity statistics and all of the other statistics that need to be tackled. We need to get to grips with this.Also, to return to the active travel Act, we need to make it easier for people to travel on a bicycle or to walk, as Lee Waters has already mentioned. We need to invest. If we are going to cycle to work, then we need investment in showers and changing rooms in those workplaces. That requires investment, but it also needs the vision to create that in accordance with the active travel Act, which is more important. But we need to think in broader terms about this. If you’ve ever tried to walk around Cardiff Bay—going from here to the town centre, it’s quite difficult to do as a pedestrian. It is very difficult. It’s difficult often to find a pavement, never mind actually travelling by bicycle from Cardiff Bay to the city centre. So, the message is: this is a challenge for all of us, whether we are fit or not at the moment. It’s never too late. We can all improve our health just by walking everywhere. It’s down to authorities responsible for planning our roads and other ways of travelling. We need those developments in place, and they must take into account the need to make it easier for us to cycle or to walk. Walking for 30 minutes five times a week: that is the level of fitness that individuals require. Then, there will be less demand on our GPs and less need for tablets at the end of the day. Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate on physical activity. First of all, I want to reiterate how important it is that children get as much physical activity as possibly, and that physical activity should be built into their days. We don’t want to raise a nation of couch potatoes, because we know how good physical activity is for you, as our doctor has just told us. Of course, we know it’s very good for mental health as well. Yesterday, there were a lot of mentions of the very moving occasion of the Samaritans event in the Pierhead, when Nigel Owens spoke so movingly about dealing with mental health issues. We do know that physical activity is very good for your mental health.According to Public Health Wales in its 2016 report ‘Making a Difference’, each year, physical inactivity costs the NHS in Wales £51 million a year and increased cycling and walking in urban areas could save £0.9 billion for the NHS in Wales over 20 years. So, there’s a huge amount of difference that could be made to the actual running of our health service. So, I think that the most important thing that we can do is to encourage children to start good, healthy patterns of behaviour from an early stage in life. I do think it’s important to remember at this point that many of the activities that children undertake outside school do cost parents quite a bit money. Football clubs, swimming and tennis—parents do actually have to pay out of their pockets for a lot of that. That’s why it is so important that much of what is done is built into our education system. I would like to praise the walking bus initiatives, which were mentioned by Lee Waters in his introduction. I would particularly like to praise the walking bus initiative at Ysgol y Wern in my constituency, which is supported now by police colleagues of Sergeant Louise Lucas, who was so tragically killed while crossing a road in Swansea in March last year. Sadly, there has been more publicity about that over the last few days. Her colleagues from Llanishen police station were determined to carry on the walking bus to the school that she had started. I went on the walking bus myself this time last year. I think the walking bus initiative is a really good way of building exercise into children’s lives, and I think it’s great for parents to know that their children are safe in walking to school. So, I think that that is an initiative that we need to push and spread as much as possible. That particular one was supported by Sustrans and by the local authority and by the police, very strongly. Walking is, of course, the easiest and most accessible activity that we can all build into our lives. That is why I am a big supporter, as are other people here, of the active travel Act and the work that is going on to plan active travel routes for walking and cycling. Lee Waters has already mentioned the—perhaps—failure to engage in the first round of consultation. I believe he said that only 300 responses came in from the whole of Wales on the first consultation. So, I think it’s really important now that we do try and get many more views on where the routes should be. I think that if people get engaged in the process of deciding where these routes are, it is much more likely that they will actually use them. The final point that I wanted to make, really, was about some of the gender differences that are there in terms of walking and cycling. A briefing from Sustrans earlier this year pointed out that local authorities should really bear in mind that there is a gender difference in the way that women want to cycle, for example. Women, for instance, are much keener to cycle when there are segregated cycle paths than men are.The other issue is that I think there’s a big difference between the number of women who actually do cycle and the number of men. Only 34 per cent of women said in Cardiff that they ride bikes, compared to 66 per cent of men. So, that’s really quite a big difference, and, again, that was in Cardiff—a survey carried out by Sustrans. So, I just think we’ve got to bear in mind when we plan these things that there are specific gender issues that we should look at.Finally, we had the International Day of the Girl yesterday. I think these international days are really important, because it really makes us remember and flag up different issues. I’d just like to quickly mention girls and sport, because, sadly, girls are still lagging behind boys when it comes to taking up physical activity in the form of sports. The most recent figures show that, in terms of those hooked on sport, 52 per cent of boys are hooked; only 44 per cent of girls are hooked. It has gone up, but there’s also a big difference between schoolchildren in areas of deprivation and by ethnic group, with Asian girls having the lowest level of participation in sport, with just 28 per cent taking part. So, I think there are lots of issues to look at.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am indeed really grateful to Lee Waters AM for instigating this debate, to put on record, actually, some acknowledgement of the work you’ve done previously over many years in fighting through, you know, with enthusiasm and passion to implement a real focus for the main aims and purpose of the active travel Act. You know, it’s been said here, hasn’t it, that the health and well-being effects and benefits of regular physical activity are well documented and even more proven. Regular exercise can reduce mortality by 39 per cent, increase life expectancy, reduce the risk of having a stroke by 27 per cent, of developing type 2 diabetes by 60 per cent, of developing cancer of the colon, breast or womb by 20 per cent, and can avoid brain shrinkage to help prevent dementia. Endorphins and serotonin are boosted as a natural therapy for those experiencing feelings of low self-esteem, isolation, stress and depression—a key contributory factor in terms of feeding into our prevention intervention and prudent healthcare agenda. Just 35 per cent of Welsh children undertake an hour of activity each day. Of those living within less than half a mile of their primary school, 30 per cent are driven daily, just 2 per cent cycle to primary school—and even fewer, at 1 per cent, to secondary.Inactivity is an issue affecting adults also—34 per cent of people haven’t undertaken any form of active travel in the previous seven days, and more startlingly, 35 per cent had walked infrequently or not at all in the past three months. That is really a very poor statistic. Speak to anybody who has actually lost their own mobility now through a fall or an accident, and how their lives have changed significantly to the detriment, and they haven’t got the opportunity now, having lost their mobility, to be able to actively take part in anything going forward. Professor Stuart Cole noted in his report to the previous Minister last year that funding levels for active travel are low, at just £5 per head, compared to other areas of the UK, which spend twice as much. Cycling England found that just £10 a head resulted in an increase of 27 per cent in cycling in their cycling demonstration towns over three years. In the Netherlands, they spend around £25 per head, and almost a third of people list cycling as their main form of transport. In Sydney—an 82 per cent increase in cycling in just two years as a result of a five-year investment in the city’s cycling strategy, including the construction of 55 km of cycle tracks to be completed this year. Compare that to us here in Wales.Compliance by local authorities as regards the adult active travel Act design guidance is essential. They’ve undertaken the technical training, but concerns around effective monitoring of active travel grant funding must be flagged up here today, and I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to advise on how this is actually being implemented. Furthermore, wide and early engagement by local authorities in the next stage of the active travel Act is essential. The online tool launched by Cycling UK, Sustrans Cymru, Living Streets and Welsh Cycling to enable people to connect with their local authorities has seen over 600 people engaged in this way, more than double the number engaged in the first phase. However, we now look to improve that engagement with local sensory deprivation groups to ensure the voices of those who are blind, partially sighted or suffer hearing loss are not left behind. The Welsh Government’s 2015 annual report on the Active Travel (Wales) Act fails to consider increased usage of active travel routes and how this is going to be considered when the integrated network maps are in place. I would therefore like to call on the Welsh Government for an externally commissioned review into how progress is going to be recorded under the Act, for example, using the experience of the active travel board with an academic partner. Sustrans and other stakeholders on the active travel board have called for meaningful targets for an increase in active travel to be introduced. It’s effective in Scotland, where the set of indicators in the cycling action plan are linked to a 1 per cent per annum increase in transport funding, resulting in a much higher quality of reporting. Cabinet Secretary, can you advise as to whether you will seek to introduce such targets?Llywydd, the ambitions of the active travel Act are to be commended, but far more now needs to be done by Welsh Government to see these ambitions through. Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: I’ve mentioned before, Llywydd, that in Newport we’ve been having meetings for quite some time now, which I’ve been very pleased to convene, between the local health board, and public health particularly, Newport Live, which is the leisure trust, Newport City council, housing associations, including Newport City Homes, which took the stock transfer and the major estates from Newport City Council, sports clubs and a range of others. The purpose of those meetings is to try and get Newport’s population more physically active and healthier. I hope very much that Welsh Government might support some of those initiatives coming out of those meetings, to see whether they’re effective and they work and might be rolled out across Wales, because I do believe we need pilot schemes to test some of these partnerships. Because it seems to me that, unless we build partnerships of real width, and indeed of depth, we’re not going to get the large-scale change we need to get Wales more physically active and healthy, with all the obvious benefits that brings. We need to get on the front foot with health, rather than being largely reactive, and I believe a more physically active population is a big part of that effort. So, I think similarly for active travel we need a whole-system partnership if we are going to make active travel for short journeys the routine choice. We will need planners to get on board, and we will need local authorities and public sector employers in terms of the way they facilitate their staff to make active travel journeys to work and from work. We will need schools, of course, perhaps to do even more around safe routes to schools, cycle training, and I hope sometimes the provision of bikes for children in more disadvantaged circumstances who haven’t got bikes, perhaps through some community schemes where bikes are donated, repaired and made useable again. Also, of course, the voluntary sector and Welsh Government. We talk about whole-sector partnerships if we’re going to have large-scale change; I think that applies to physical activity generally, and it applies to active travel as well. So, I hope that’s the spirit within which we can take action forward at Welsh Government level, local government level, and with all the key partners after this debate takes place today. We heard earlier, Llywydd, from Lee Waters, in opening the debate, of the great benefits and the radical nature of the active travel Act. Well, can I say, Llywydd, that as the Minister who had the privilege of taking the active travel legislation through the Assembly and putting it on the statute book, I very much agree with my colleague Lee Waters and, I’m sure, many other speakers in this debate today? I do believe it’s radical. I believe it could deliver a step change in terms of physical activity and health, the environment, the economy and general quality of life in Wales. So, given that promise, that potential, I hope very much that, after today, we will go on to implement the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 fully, enthusiastically and in a timely manner. Diolch yn fawr.

Vikki Howells AC: I’d like to start by thanking the Members in whose name this motion is tabled today. I’ll focus my remarks on the first two points of the motion, and in doing so, I’ll return to a theme I covered a few weeks ago in my short debate on outdoor education in Wales.As the motion notes, just under two thirds of Welsh children do not get the recommended hour of physical activity, which they need to stay healthy, every day. This is simply unacceptable and, to echo the scale of the challenge, I’d like to reiterate another statistic, which really struck me: three quarters of UK children spend less time outdoors than prison inmates.Outdoor physical activity, whether in terms of active travel or outdoors education, is good for physical health and mental well-being, and there are significant challenges that we need to address in former industrial communities, such as mine in particular. For example, recent statistics show that, in my local authority area of Rhondda Cynon Taf, approximately 63 per cent of adults are overweight or obese, 14 per cent of residents say they are being treated for a mental illness, and over a quarter of adults smoke. Raising levels of physical activity from an early age offers one solution to these really challenging health outcomes.We are also facing a nature deficit disorder, where our children and young people are cut off from the world outside their doorsteps, which itself poses questions to our future approaches to important issues of sustainability. Only 13 per cent of Welsh children considered themselves to have a close link to the outdoors, according to the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, a figure lower than for Scotland, Northern Ireland, or even London. And, again, although it is not the only solution, encouraging active travel cannot harm our connection to the wider world.I also think the fourth part of the motion makes an important point about our approach. We need to develop joined-up solutions between communities and stakeholders, so that destinations are linked up with new and improved travel routes. For example, an important paper produced by Natural Resources Wales on the natural opportunities provided by the landscape in Rhondda noted that, in my local authority of RCT, there are over 700 km of trails and established walks linking communities and villages to woodlands and mountains. These clearly have a role to play in encouraging active travel.On a similar point, whilst I am delighted that the Dare Valley Country Park, in my constituency, will be the venue for Wales’s first nature-based kindergarten for children aged two to five, I am keen that active travel networks are developed to enable children and their families to reach this destination. If the purpose of this kindergarten is to encourage our children to be able to partake of the outdoors education that has been so beneficial in terms of health, confidence and well-being in other countries, surely we must work to develop complementary active travel opportunities, so that the journey becomes just as important as the destination. Thank you.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to Lee for instigating the debate. Yes, there are long-term health benefits of physical activity, which could also translate into long-term financial benefits, if, that is, we can reduce conditions such as obesity and diabetes. I acknowledge that the Welsh Government is now attempting a more joined-up approach to this issue, which inevitably crosses over the boundaries of several different Government departments.In UKIP Wales, we welcome, for instance, the involvement of Sport Wales in promoting sport amongst those who haven’t previously been physically active, which is a welcome development. The Active Travel (Wales) Act can potentially play a large part in helping with the objective of increasing physical activity. We do need to get more people travelling to school, work, and even to the shops. To this end, targets can sometimes help—a point that Janet made earlier—and I note that in England they are currently considering a target of getting 55 per cent of schoolchildren walking to school by 2025. Although this is ambitious, if we are serious about achieving the Active Travel (Wales) Act’s aims, then perhaps we should consider setting a similar target here in Wales.Local authorities here are beginning to respond to the nudging of groups like Living Streets, which supports walking, and Sustrans, which promotes cycling. We are seeing these groups bring in the local community with initiatives like community street audits, which aim to look at various routes from the perspective of walkers. From this, councils can learn what measures need to be introduced to improve walking access, such as bollards and railings in some instances, which require modest investment, and in other cases, simply the relocation of a lollipop man or lady, or a zebra crossing. In my own area of Canton in west Cardiff, we now have up and running a park-and-stride scheme, which gets kids walking part of the route to school. First, they walk to a safe parking area, and then they do get driven, but at least they get to walk some of the route. The other scheme promoted by Living Wales for walking is the walking bus, as mentioned previously, where children walk the whole way in an organised march, picking up more participants en route.Cycling is the other major activity that can aid long-term health. This also raises issues. Sustrans in Cardiff, for example, have consistently questioned the facilities available for cyclists at the soon-to-be redeveloped Cardiff bus station. As the Minister is doubtless aware, there is a major office redevelopment taking place in Central Square in Cardiff, which will lead to a smaller bus station. This change has also led to questions over cycling facilities. So, I would ask what measures can the Welsh Government take to ensure that local councils adhere to the objectives of active travel by providing adequate cycling facilities in our major transport hubs? And are we to have any targets on walking to school? Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: As there seems to be widespread consensus across all parties here, I just want to introduce a little bit of urgency and perhaps challenge to this debate. The fourth clause calls on the Welsh Government to fully engage communities in identifying new routes that would link up local destinations, and they would be most likely to be well used. No. 1: I’d like to suggest that Dai Lloyd tries out Lloyd George Avenue as a route to the city centre, because it’s an excellent bicycling and walking route until you get to Callaghan Square and then it becomes a bit of a death trap. So, it would be great if you would track it and then make recommendations to Cardiff council on how to make it safer, because it’s great while you go down Lloyd George Avenue and it’s pretty atrocious once you get to the city centre. So, that’s one thing. One of the most important things we do is to receive schools that visit the Senedd from our constituencies, and I pledged to routinely ask all the schools that visit from my own constituency, ‘How did you get to school this morning?’, because I find it very revealing that although there is a significant proportion who do either walk or cycle, there’s nevertheless also a very significant proportion of young people who live within a mile of their primary school who are going by car. That really is an absolute nonsense. It’s neither good for the child, nor good for the environment, nor good for the community. So, we really do need to raise this up the agenda. It should be absolutely mandatory that all schools have an active travel policy so that when somebody signs up to attend that school, we are able to say to them, ‘This is the active travel route that you should be taking today.’I was speaking to a headteacher from, I think, one of the Valleys constituencies, and she said, ‘Well, my school is at the very top of a high hill.’ I recognise that that is a big challenge for a child to bicycle to school, not just because it’s uphill, because young people can bicycle uphill, but because downhill is one of the most dangerous things about bicycling and it is not for the uninitiated. But her children walk to school, because that’s what we do, and that’s what we always did. So, I think we need to get a lot more demanding of our parents in asking them why it is they are taking their children to school even though we know that they are going to be better prepared to learn in the morning by having got the blood rushing around their head through walking or bicycling to school. We really do have an education programme to do with our families, because I think a lot of children who don’t currently walk or cycle to school would like to do so. So, I would like to suggest that, just as in the National Assembly we have a buy-a-bike scheme for our staff, which I believe has had an excellent uptake, we should be trying, as John Griffiths has suggested, to get a buy-a-bike scheme for all our schools, particularly those where they’re spending up to 20 per cent of their income, as Lee Waters has said, on travel, which is clearly a major issue for their family income and one that would solve several birds with one stone. So, I think that’s something where we ought to be involving the voluntary sector and getting grants that people could then pay back the cost of the bicycle gradually. I appreciate the picture is a lot more complicated in rural areas, but I represent an urban constituency and there is no excuse, really, why any of the young people in my constituency, with the possible exception of those in the care system or obviously disabled children—.Most people should be going to school either by walking, bicycling or by public transport. There’s a great deal more we need to do. I think school is a good place to start by engaging with families and to really challenge them, ‘Are you going to be taking your child to work?’, because why on earth are we taking them to secondary school? So, if we could get schools to be the point from where we could discuss how children could be getting safely to school by making minor adjustments to the obesogenic environment landscape that is our road schemes, then that might (a) get them more involved in understanding that there are safe routes to school and (b) ensure that local authorities are doing everything possible to ensure that that is the case. So, I would strongly urge the Government to really make this a much more central part of its overall well-being agenda.

I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Members will remember in my recent oral statement I set out what the Welsh Government is doing to support active travel in Wales and what we’re doing more broadly to encourage people to become more physically active. I’m pleased to give my full support to the motion being debated today and I’m very grateful to Members for the genuine interest and enthusiasm that they are bringing to this agenda. Our programme for government includes a commitment to support people to be healthy and active. Achieving this, though, requires cross-portfolio action to create the environment and the opportunity for people to make healthier lifestyle choices. We continue to work closely with our partners, including Sport Wales, Public Health Wales, Natural Resources Wales and a really wide range of third sector organisations to ensure that people are aware of the benefits of physical activity and are motivated and provided with opportunities to introduce physical activity into their daily lives. Sport Wales has a number of programmes in place which encourage young people in particular to take part in sport and physical activity and I’m really pleased to report that participation rates are increasing, but we do know that there is more work to do.Over the summer we have considered, alongside interested parties, a range of recommendations to increase levels of physical activity. Dr Frank Atherton, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, will chair a newly established cross-cutting group to prioritise our actions to support this agenda. This work will help inform our healthy and active strategy, which we have committed to in our programme for government.The second point of the motion today refers to the Welsh health survey data on physical activity rates among children. Improving the physical activity levels amongst children must be a priority because the benefits of a healthy and active lifestyle in childhood are realised throughout life. There is also a link between physical activity and educational attainment. I saw a real example of this recently when I visited Pantysgallog Primary School to see how they’ve introduced a 1-mile walk, jog or run for all key stage 2 pupils, and that takes place between breakfast club and the start of the school day. In addition to the health benefits, the teachers at the school have noticed a reduction in disruptive behaviour during lessons and the children told me about their improved concentration levels. They also told me how much fun they thought it was, and we can’t over emphasise how important that is. The latest Welsh health survey results reported that the rate of school-age children meeting the chief medical officer’s recommended level of physical activity has increased by 1 per cent to 36 per cent, so things are moving in the right direction, but we want to accelerate that improvement. This requires a whole-of-society response.Schools do have a key role to play. In response to the ‘Successful Futures’ report by Professor Donaldson, we’re developing a new curriculum that will support children and young people to become healthy and confident individuals. The implementation of six new areas of learning experiences will be central to the new curriculum and one of which will be health and well-being. Our programme for government makes clear our commitment to work with schools to raise awareness of the importance of healthy lifestyle choices. The Welsh Network of Healthy School Schemes supports a whole-school approach to health. Ninety-nine per cent of all maintained schools are involved in the scheme and it’s regarded as one of the best in Europe. Furthermore, the scheme has been successfully extended now to include pre-school settings. The Active Journeys programme, which works in schools to promote active travel to and from school, complements these efforts in a really practical way and makes resources and support available to schools across Wales. To build on this, I can announce today that I’ll be commissioning Living Streets to deliver a Walk to School in Wales project, which will highlight the health benefits of active travel. It will also support a number of schools to carry out their own review of walking routes in their area, offering a sustainable way of assessing and identifying ways of improving the active travel infrastructure. The home environment also plays a vital role. Public Health Wales’s 10 Steps to a Healthy Weight campaign helps parents instil healthy habits in their children by setting out easy steps they can take to support their child to develop and maintain a healthy weight, such as limiting screen time and encouraging outdoor play. Through our newly launched Healthy Child Wales programme, we’ll ensure that health visitors are able to support families to make healthy choices from before birth to the age of seven. The third point in the motion highlights the potential of the active travel Act to raise physical activity levels across the population. You’ve heard me say before that I see active travel as a key element of building physical activity into people’s daily lives and that the Act puts in place the framework to support this. It does so by mandating the planning of coherent walking and cycling networks in our communities across Wales and promoting their use. To ensure that these networks are fit for purpose and that they really meet people’s needs, local authorities need to involve those who regularly walk and cycle, but also, as we’ve heard, crucially, those who don’t. I was pleased to meet recently with our active travel board, to demonstrate how seriously I take their work. And I’m delighted that Dr Adrian Davis has agreed to join our board as he brings with him a significant expertise, both in active travel and in public health.In relation to the fourth point of the motion, we agree that effective community engagement is key to determining how local active infrastructure is best designed, and this is a requirement that we put on local authorities, which are best placed to engage with the varying needs and assets of their local communities.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you for giving way. I think it’s around three years now since I remember questioning the Member for Llanelli in a previous life, when I was Chair of the Enterprise and Business Committee and he was giving evidence for Sustrans. So, three years have passed and we spoke about all this then. It’s all great stuff, but what is actually happening on the ground with these cycle networks? Are you confident that local authorities are delivering them?

Rebecca Evans AC: Local authorities are very aware of how seriously Welsh Government takes the implementation of the Act and one of the first things that I did after coming into post was to remind them of their duties under the Act, but it’s not just that this is a responsibility of people in travel; actually it’s a responsibility of people in local government right across. So, local authorities now are preparing their integrated maps and we will see developments in the future to fill those gaps that people are identifying through the project that Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned. It’s the campaign by Cycling UK, Living Streets, Sustrans Cymru and Welsh Cycling in order to help people to engage with the process and let the local authorities know exactly where they need local improvements to cycling and walking networks.So, in relation to the fourth point of the motion, we do agree how important that local engagement is. We can and will, however, continue to provide the leadership at a national level to support local authorities in their work. So, I think it’s really clear from the thoughtful contributions that we’ve had to the debate today that we all agree on the important role that physical activity plays in keeping us all physically and mentally well. I do hope that this Government’s commitment to this area—not least through the prominence given to it in our programme for government, but also through the bringing together of responsibilities in this area into one portfolio—is clear for Members to see and we look forward to future support in the active travel agenda.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I’m very pleased to have the opportunity to have supported this motion and to support the other Members who have spoken so enthusiastically this afternoon on the need to promote physical activity and to ensure that the appropriate infrastructure is in place in terms of active travel, in order to ensure that that can happen within our communities as part of our daily lives. The health of the people of Wales, and the children of Wales in particular, of course, is a cause of concern for each and every one of us here. There are plenty of signs that we are storing up huge health and social problems. The fact that we are spending 10 per cent of the NHS budget on treating diabetes is a stark warning to us. As Assembly Member for Ynys Môn, I wasn’t pleased to see Anglesey rising to the top of one table last year, when Public Health Wales announced that Anglesey had the highest percentage of children who were obese or overweight. A third of the children on the isle are either overweight or obese; those figures are, of course, frightening. Of course, a lack of physical activity is at the heart of much of that. As Julie Morgan said earlier, the problem is that the patterns that children adopt early in life are often emulated when those children become adults. Therefore, we must tackle the problem at its root. I do some rugby coaching in Llangefni rugby club. I apologise to the children for the quality of my rugby coaching, but one thing that drives me is this element of promoting physical activity. There are numerous examples across Anglesey of opportunities that are provided for our young people, from rugby to football, to hockey, gymnastics, athletics, sailing—there are too many to list. It’s a wonderful thing to be in the Holyhead weightlifting and fitness centre when Holyhead school, which is nearby, closes at the end of the day and the young people flow in because the resources are available for them and there are people to inspire them to look after their own health through physical activity. But, somehow, we must ensure that there is more physical activity happening in our schools. Of course, physical education is timetabled. But, as the motion suggests, only around a third of children in Wales get that hour of daily physical activity that is recommended. Forgive me for not getting too excited that the figure has increased from 35 per cent to 36 per cent. I do think that it’s through our schools that we should actually push up that figure for young people. I’m a strong believer, for example, in extending the school day in order to provide time to promote physical activity. We must ensure that the resources are in place in our schools. And, of course, promoting active travel in order to get to school does provide an additional layer of physical activity. I certainly welcome the new work that’s been commissioned by the Government, but it is now time, as Nick Ramsay said, for us to see those pledges becoming reality.Let us look at slightly later in life, where physical activity is just as crucial. Age Cymru remind us that ensuring adequate levels of physical activity is crucial to the older population for the sake of their general health, but also for the sake of their independence and their ability to play a full part in society. What is wonderful, of course, is that that physical activity can be a core part of their daily lives because one tool that we have, which is supposed to help in this, is the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. Unfortunately, the health benefits of active travel aren’t appreciated enough. The system to assess the cost-benefits of projects actually leaves health benefits out of the assessment, for example, which means that active travel plans don’t necessarily score as highly as they should. Sustrans—we’ve heard them mentioned a number of times today—are of the view that not all departments of government appreciate the benefits of active travel. Their experience is that, to date, it’s only transport departments that have this on their radar. We’ve heard that referred to already today, but if we are to create a culture of active travel in Wales, then we need a far broader workforce actually making it work and making it happen. That silo mentality has to come to an end.As the motion states, and as the Member for Llanelli stated, we must work effectively and efficiently with communities in order to identify how to make the most of that legislative tool that we have. Let us, therefore, promote active travel with new enthusiasm and energy. It’s clear across this Chamber that we share the same ambition. It’s clear that we share common views on the direction of travel and, therefore, it’s time to achieve the vision that John Griffiths as Minister had, and this Chamber—the Assembly—more generally had, back in 2013 when the Act was passed. So, let’s promote active travel, let’s promote physical activity throughout our society, and let’s make Wales a healthier country. I encourage you to support the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

4. Urgent Question: British Airways Maintenance Facility

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on Adam Price to ask the urgent question.

Adam Price AC: What is the Welsh Government’s response to reports that British Airways is looking to cut 66 jobs at its maintenance facility based at Cardiff Airport? EAQ(5)0054(EI)[W]

Julie James AC: Today’s news of redundancies at British Airways’ maintenance facility is unfortunate. BA is seeking voluntary redundancies where possible. The Welsh Government is working closely with BA. Job Centre Plus and Careers Wales will be asked to support all staff affected, and the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Infrastructure will keep the Assembly updated as we know more.

Adam Price AC: Obviously, as the Minister has said, this is clearly very unwelcome news in deeply uncertain economic times, and will be of great concern to the employees affected and their families. And, of course, it’s a serious blow to the aerospace sector, which is a major source of high-skilled and highly paid jobs throughout Wales, but, obviously, particularly in this enterprise zone in which the Welsh Government has invested heavily, not least, of course, in acquiring Cardiff Airport itself. Could the Minister tell the Assembly at what point the Government was aware of these impending job losses? There seems to be a worrying pattern of late with some of our major companies making these announcements. Are the antennae of the Welsh Government sufficiently alive to these possibilities? Can the Government also share what it knows about the underlying purpose behind this announcement? The company has referred to corporate restructuring. Is this a case of cuts in numbers overall, or is some of the maintenance activity being relocated elsewhere? Is it the case, as we have heard from members of the workforce, that there is also a suggestion of some staff being re-graded and suffering a loss in salary as a result? The company has itself made a series of profit warnings over the course of the last few months, as a result of the depreciation in the pound and the uncertainty following the referendum. Is there any suggestion at this stage of any link between this decision and those profit warnings? Would the Minister agree that if it is simply a case of cutting costs, that would be very, very troubling if it’s done at the expense of the workforce and indeed the safety of BA’s customers, particularly by a company that, despite those profit warnings, will still have a profit of over £1 billion and pays its chief executive, the chief executive of the international aviation group, Willie Walsh, multi-million pounds? That is why I feel that the workforce, certainly, will find this decision and the rationale behind it very, very difficult to take. Finally, can she say where this leaves the strategy that I referred to in terms of the enterprise zone, and in terms of the aviation sector, which is one of our key sectors here in Wales?

Julie James AC: Well, thank you very much for those questions, which are all very important indeed, and I’ll try my best to answer them fully. In terms of when, the Government has, via its officials and on a political level, been in touch with BA throughout this year. Senior-level meetings were held earlier this year in London. A range of officials are engaged with BA at all times as part of the Welsh Government strategy to assist the company.We knew formally about these job losses this morning, because it was right and proper that BA told its staff, its workforce, first before they made any other third party and stakeholders aware, but we were told immediately afterwards. We are in constant contact with them, so it was not a surprise, but we were not formally informed until after the workforce was formally informed. There now needs to be a proper legal process, a 90-day consultation period, and the unions are engaged with that. BA are very insistent that they are looking for voluntary redundancies, and that they hope to avoid any compulsories. They are not able, obviously, to guarantee that, as nobody ever can in a process such as this, but they’re very hopeful that they can do that. This is very much part of their five-year planned restructuring of their company, and I don’t want anyone to go from here today with a pall of gloom and despondency over it. Obviously, this is very bad news for the staff involved, and we will do our level best to assist all of them in any way that their circumstances warrant, but BA have a good future on the site, it is part of an overall planned restructure, and we have no reason to think that it’s any indication of any ongoing difficulty. I certainly don’t want to give any impression at all that there’s any issue around safety or any issue such as that. There is absolutely no reason to think such a thing, and I really want Members not to go away with that impression. So, I really only can reiterate what I said. This is part of the formal consultation, it is part of an overall strategy we have been engaged with. I think they’re following the right processes. We have no reason to have an enormous amount of alarm. I have every sympathy with staff affected by this, but there’s no reason for more widespread alarm and, in fact, there’s every reason to feel hopeful that the five-year plan will eventually emerge with a more sustainable and more grounded industry here in Cardiff.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, thank you for your response so far to the urgent question. I’ve visited the site on numerous occasions and realise what a complex site it is, with a multi-disciplinary team there who are performing at the top of their game, but in a very competitive environment, with Dubai and Singapore offering very large economies of scale to some operators, but BA, in fairness to them, have committed to that site and have invested significant amounts of money in that site, they have. Could you elaborate slightly on your discussions and the Government’s discussions with BA as to whether there have been any formal requests for support to recategorise employment on the site, help with retraining, or support of any shape to retain any of these 66 jobs, put formally to the Government? I hear what you say about the formal announcement was only relayed to you this morning, but you did give an indication, obviously, that, in preliminary discussions, you were made aware that there might be some challenges within the employment base there. Secondly, we are aware, obviously, of the positive news that was announced last year of them winning the Dreamliner contract for future maintenance, but there is a period between the phasing out of the 747s and the Dreamliners obviously requiring their maintenance schedules, because obviously it is a very new aircraft. Are these job losses a symptom of that short—hopefully, short—period of transition between the phasing out of the 747s that are in the BA fleet and the taking on of the Dreamliner maintenance work to the site, so there is an element of slack in the system that obviously requires some rebalancing of the workforce? Above all, can you confirm whether any of these job losses are in a specific division on the site, or are they across the whole of the workforce on the site, which numbers some 700 employees? This is obviously a concerning time for the families and the employees themselves, but I, too—like you, Minister—do share optimism over the security of the site and, indeed, obviously over the future order book, which does look robust, but there is, as I said, this transition from the 747s to the Dreamliners.

Julie James AC: Well, I’m not in a position to give you chapter and verse of the strategy for BA at the site; I think it’s a matter for them to do that, as a corporate entity. And that’s what I said, when I said the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure would keep the Assembly informed—as it’s right and proper for the Assembly to know what the plan is, and as it’s announced to the workforce and so on, we will keep the Assembly informed of that. So, I’m not in a position today to give you chapter and verse about the intricacies of the plan, but I will say that we have been working very closely with the company, that we are fully involved, and that we have every hope for the future of the site and that it will be put on a sustainable footing for the foreseeable future, and that’s what we all want. I will reiterate my sympathy for staff facing redundancy. We have every sympathy with people whose lives are affected in that way—it’s a terrible thing for anybody to face—but I do not want anybody to go away today with the downbeat notion that that means that there is some structural uncertainty or anything else in BA. That’s very much not the message we want to give off.In terms of the conversation about training, we have been assisting BAMCE with training in the way that we assist many of our anchor and regionally important companies, and so on. So, we have a training programme that we assist them with—we assist them with apprentices, for example, and other training needs. That’s very much part of the structured relationship between the Government and the company, and that’s continuing. I’ve no reason to feel that that’s anything other than the success story that I’ve reported in this Chamber a number of times in terms of the apprentices, and so on. So, there’s no reason to be alarmed there. The process needs to be gone through. We need to be hopeful that we can secure voluntary redundancies, that there won’t be any need for people who don’t want to go to go, and, as I say, our staff and the Jobcentre Plus staff are on hand to pick up individuals and ensure that their individual circumstances and needs are met, and it’s very much that individual service that we offer for staff in this situation. So, again, I’ll just reiterate that we have no reason to think that there’s any fundamental structural problem with this, that there’s no reason for alarm for the rest of the staff there, that we have a five-year plan in train and that we have a good relationship with the company, which we have every reason to think will continue into the future.

I thank the Minister.

5. 4. Plaid Cymru Debate: Mental Health

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies, and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item on our agenda is the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM6115 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Regrets that prejudice towards those who have, or have had, mental health problems continues, and the impact this can have on employment, income and well-being for those with mental health problems.2. Believes that education about mental health should start at a young age and schools should be equipped to promote well-being amongst all pupils.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:a) continue to tackle prejudice and to seek powers over employment law so that protections for people with mental health problems at work can be strengthened; andb) ensure that all public services examine ways in which their own practices can be improved to contribute towards better mental health.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am pleased to be able to put forward this motion. I look forward to the discussion this afternoon in a week where we’ve been marking World Mental Health Day. In general terms, I think there are two kinds of discussions that we have when we talk about mental health: first of all, how the health service responds to people who do need treatment. Very often, we talk about treatment being left too late, and so on. The second discussion relates to how wider society behaves towards those who have or who have had mental health problems. The intention of today’s debate is to discuss that second aspect. It’s very difficult to discuss the best way of gaining access to treatment very quickly, but if wider society prevents the recovery of people by discriminating against them, then there will be restrictions on what the NHS can achieve. Rwy’n credu bod y ffeithiau moel yn siarad drostynt eu hunain. Mae un o bob pedwar oedolyn yn debygol o gael problem iechyd meddwl mewn unrhyw un flwyddyn. Bydd hyn yn effeithio’n fawr ar eu bywydau a’u gallu i gynnal perthynas, cyflogaeth, neu ddim ond i allu mynd drwy’r dydd efallai. Yr un mor heriol yw’r amcangyfrif mai tua chwarter y bobl â phroblem iechyd meddwl yn unig sy’n cael triniaeth barhaus, gan adael y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn ymgodymu â materion iechyd meddwl ar eu pen eu hunain. Mae’r amcangyfrifon diweddaraf o’r arolwg o’r llafurlu yn dangos mai straen sy’n gyfrifol am 35 y cant o’r holl achosion o salwch sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith a 43 y cant o’r holl ddiwrnodau gwaith a gollwyd oherwydd salwch. Amcangyfrifir bod cost problemau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru yn £7.2 biliwn y flwyddyn, ac mae hyn yn cynnwys cost iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol a ddarperir ar gyfer pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl—y gost i economi Cymru yn sgil pobl yn methu gweithio oherwydd eu trallod. Mae’r gost sy’n gysylltiedig ag iechyd meddwl gwael yn y gweithle bron yn £1.2 biliwn y flwyddyn, sy’n cyfateb i £860 am bob cyflogai yn y gweithlu yng Nghymru. Yn aml, mae staff rheng flaen yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn fwy tebygol o brofi problemau na phobl mewn diwydiannau eraill, a hefyd yn llai tebygol o gael help. Dyma pam rydym wedi gofyn yn benodol i wasanaethau cyhoeddus archwilio sut y gellid gwella eu harferion eu hunain yn rhan o’r cynnig hwn. Yn anffodus, nid oes amheuaeth fod gwahaniaethu eang yn ychwanegu at y problemau a wynebir gan bobl sydd â salwch meddwl. Mae llawer o bobl sydd â salwch meddwl yn dioddef anfanteision systematig mewn llawer—y rhan fwyaf, gallech ddadlau—o feysydd yn eu bywydau. Mae’r ffurfiau hyn o allgáu cymdeithasol yn digwydd yn y cartref, yn y gwaith, mewn bywyd personol, mewn gweithgareddau cymdeithasol, ym maes gofal iechyd ac yn y cyfryngau hefyd. Ond mae’r ymgyrch Amser i Newid wedi bod yn effeithiol yn herio rhai agweddau ar wahaniaethu, ac mae agweddau tuag at bobl â salwch meddwl yn fwy ffafriol, yn ôl yr arolwg, yn 2014 nag yr oeddent yn 2008. Rwyf am roi cyfraddau ymateb i chi i sawl gosodiad a roddwyd fel rhan o’r arolwg. Yn gyntaf: ni ddylai unrhyw un sydd â hanes o broblemau iechyd meddwl gael eu caniatáu i ddal swydd gyhoeddus—o 21 y cant yn cytuno yn 2008, mae wedi disgyn i 16 y cant yn cytuno yn 2014. Datganiad arall: mae’n frawychus meddwl bod pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn byw mewn cymdogaethau preswyl, i lawr o 16 y cant yn cytuno i 12 y cant. Ni fyddwn eisiau byw drws nesaf i rywun sydd wedi bod â salwch meddwl, i lawr o 12 y cant i 9 y cant. Ni ddylid rhoi unrhyw gyfrifoldebau i bobl â salwch meddwl, i lawr o 15 y cant i 11 y cant. Felly, mae yna symud i’r cyfeiriad cywir, ond wrth gwrs, mae’r ffigurau hyn yn dal i fod yn llawer rhy uchel, ac mae’n dweud llawer am agweddau pobl yn y gymdeithas. Mae’n dal yn wir fod problemau’n parhau.Mae cyflogaeth yn un maes lle mae pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn llai tebygol o ffynnu. Maent yn llai tebygol o fod mewn gwaith a phan fyddant mewn gwaith, maent yn llai tebygol o gael help. Ymddengys bod cysylltiad achosol y ddwy ffordd rhwng diweithdra a phroblemau iechyd meddwl. Mae pobl sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn llawer llai tebygol o fod mewn gwaith cyflogedig a phobl sydd wedi bod yn ddi-waith ers o leiaf chwe mis yn fwy tebygol o ddatblygu iselder neu gyflyrau iechyd meddwl eraill, gan greu cylch o broblemau.Rwyf am roi un ffigur i chi: dywedodd tua thraean o hawlwyr newydd y lwfans ceisio gwaith fod eu hiechyd meddwl wedi dirywio dros gyfnod o bedwar mis, ond nododd y rhai a ddechreuodd mewn gwaith fod eu hiechyd meddwl wedi gwella. Bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau’n ymhelaethu ar y pwyntiau hynny yn eu cyfraniadau hwy y prynhawn yma.We’ve also drawn attention to education specifically in this motion. We know that a great deal of intervention happens in early years to ensure that children do receive the very best start, but it is becoming increasingly obvious to us that the teenage years are just as important. That’s why we want schools to be willing to promote mental health and well-being in their schools. There is good practice; there’s excellent work being done already. The Samaritans were in the Pierhead building earlier this week, outlining the schemes that they have to work with schools across Wales. It was good to talk to the team from Hafal at the Assembly the day before yesterday, talking about their Clic scheme, which is creating an online forum for young people, and older people, who want to have that community to discuss what is of concern to them because of mental health problems. Steps such as these are to be praised.Finally, we need to acknowledge that promoting mental health is also about the wider environment. There needs to be access to green spaces and to physical activity, as we discussed in a debate earlier today. That’s why we will be opposing the Conservatives’ amendment. Talking therapies are very important, but they’re not the only thing that services should be focusing on. The amendment is too narrow in its focus, and that’s why we will be voting against it.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I’ll refer too to the Government amendment. In the current political climate, I don’t think we can trust the UK Government not to withdraw safeguards from people who are vulnerable in the workplace. There are signs, aren’t there, that the Equality Act 2010 is on the radar of the Government, following the vote to leave the European Union. So, we think that it would be irresponsible for the Welsh Government not to try to gain those powers over employment rights so that people in workplaces in Wales can be safeguarded and protected in the way that they deserve. So, please do support the motion as it stands today, and I look forward to contributions by Members this afternoon.

Thank you very much. I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Angela Burns to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 1—Paul DaviesDelete point 3 and replace with:Calls on the Welsh Government to:a) end silo working in mental health delivery; andb) work across the public sector to raise awareness of mental health issues, promoting preventative techniques, such as talking therapies and mindfulness.

Amendment 1 moved.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate today. The issues that you raise in your motion have been touched upon quite a lot, actually, in the Assembly in the past few weeks. But I think, like you, that it is very important to focus upon the stigma that is attached to mental health conditions, as this can affect a person for the rest of their life.As you said, one in four of us will suffer from some form of mental health issue, whether it’s depression, which is the vast majority, anxiety, dementia, perinatal depression or psychotic illnesses. Because it affects so many of us, we have to wonder why we make it so difficult for those with mental health issues to believe that they are as valuable to society as anyone else. For example, if you look at the evidence for those who’ve had psychotic illnesses, it is clear that one in three will only have one episode, and yet, once in the system, it can be very difficult for them to break the cycle, move forward, learn to cope with their illness and get back into education or the workplace. Stigma, and fear of stigma, is shown to play a large role in this inability to reintegrate. Another third will manage with medications, and, again, the same stands true of that statistic—stigma, and fear of stigma, has made it very difficult to go back into the workplace. If you look at the people who are out of work with mental health—these days, they tend to be people in their 40s, 50s and 60s—at a time when the world was even tougher on people with mental health issues than it is today.The people I speak to about their mental health issues talk about what I’ve termed ‘the whiff of disapproval’. Young teens have told me that people are appalled that they are self-harming, their families don’t understand them or they think that they just need to get a hold of themselves, if they are struggling with eating disorders. Sometimes, a person with mental health issues might—and I do stress the word ‘might’—turn to alcohol or drugs to cope. Most homeless people, those on the street, suffer from an underlying mental health issue and, to be frank, people don’t approve of the homeless—the homeless wino loitering around the supermarket entrance—but what they don’t see is there is a person who’s lost everything, and, usually, the root cause is a lack of support or early diagnosis of a mental health condition. Maybe this is the issue, because a broken limb is easy to notice, chronic conditions are accepted, people with cancer or heart problems are relatively easy to identify and support or have sympathy for, but mental health—unseen, unknowable, often misinterpreted.Each year in Wales, between 300 and 350 people die from suicide, and the latest figures show that this is the leading cause of death for 20 to 34-year-olds. People with a diagnosed mental health condition are at particular risk, with an estimated 90 per cent of people who attempt to die or who do die by suicide having one or more mental health conditions. Suicide attempts, drugs, alcohol—these are the areas where society doesn’t really approve, but we just don’t look beyond to see the cause, and that reinforces the pejorative stigma that a person who owns to a mental health issue can often feel; that faint whiff of disapproval.Educating young people will go a long way to combating this. We already have better acceptance of physical disabilities and children are learning about personal health and environmental issues, because schools focus on these streams. We would like to see work being commissioned, Cabinet Secretary, on the best way of giving young children an understanding of mental health issues. In secondary school, this is even more important because of the extraordinary stresses our young people are under.Turning to another part of your motion, educating employers, whether private or public employers, and particularly educating those services that interface with members of the public to ensure a parity of respect and access to those with mental health issues, is vital. I think the Time to Change campaign has done an awful lot to go towards that, and it was a great pleasure on Monday of this week to meet some campaigners from the Time to Change campaign, who came around with their assistant dog and talked to us about these issues.So, the Welsh Conservatives have nothing to quarrel with Plaid Cymru on their motion, except for seven words:‘and to seek powers over employment law.’I was saddened to see this nationalist thrust on the agenda, because this is an agenda that does not usually divide us. So, we have amended—and I move the amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies—and if our amendment falls, we will support the Government amendment, which is unfortunate, because, in any other respect, we are totally in tune with this motion, and I do thank you for bringing it forward.

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to formally move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 2—Jane HuttIn sub-point 3a, delete ‘and to seek powers over employment law so that protections for people with mental health problems at work can be strengthened’ and replace with:‘in the workplace and work with employers to secure support for people with mental health problems at work.’

Amendment 2 moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Formally.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I’m very pleased to participate in this important debate today. I want to concentrate on how public services can assist in terms of mental health care, but also how public services can have a detrimental impact in this area. If I could start with the health service. Unfortunately, we’re staging this debate whilst there is another inquiry into mental health care in the Betsi Cadwaladr area. It’s important to recall why the board was placed into special measures despite the fantastic work of most front-line staff. The Tawel Fan scandal was quite appalling, and it demonstrated the clear need to improve the way in which mental health patients are treated within the NHS.The lack of services in north Wales and the shortage of beds is certainly a problem. This has led to a situation, between April and July of this year, over a period of just four months, where 91 patients were sent from the Betsi area to England to receive treatment. That’s 91 patients at a cost of around £1 million; never mind, of course, the impact on those individuals themselves. Last week, too, we heard the story of one patient who had been treated in the Betsi area who then had to go to Essex for treatment because of a shortage of bed, because the Hergest unit in Bangor was full. Of course, that unit has been full every month, with the exception of one, since October of last year.Promoting good mental health is a responsibility on all of our public services. Each service can make a contribution in this area. For example, planning and environmental departments need to promote access to open spaces and active travel, as we discussed earlier. There is clear evidence that access to greenfield sites, even within our cities, has a positive impact on mental health. There was a study carried out by the school of medicine in Exeter that proved this, and a study in the Netherlands, which questioned over 300,000 people, demonstrates a number of things—for example, that there was a positive relationship between reduced mental health problems and the availability of green spaces. There was a strong link in terms of anxiety, and that was stronger in terms of children and those of a lower socioeconomic status.Public services also have a responsibility to care for their own workforce. Stress is more of a problem in public sector areas such as health and social care, education, public administration and defence. Members of the emergency services face an even greater risk and are less likely to seek assistance. But of all the public services that need to raise their game, there is one service that stands out and deserves harsh criticism, namely the Department for Work and Pensions and job centres. There is room to believe that the DWP is actually exacerbating mental health problems. Very thorough research has been carried out by Mind, which actually highlights these problems. Three times as many benefit sanctions have been introduced for those people who do have mental health problems than those who were supported to go into work, and participating in the Work Programme has actually made these problems worse. Mind’s findings are quite appalling. For example, 83 per cent stated that their self-respect had been affected, and 76 per cent said that they felt less ready for work, having been to one of these schemes that were supposed to encourage them back to the workplace. Eighty-six per cent stated that they needed more assistance, and one in four actually had to attend hospital while attending these programmes. That is entirely unacceptable. Welfare reform has had a disproportionate effect on those people with mental health issues. The assessments failed to take into account the needs of those with mental health problems in the assessment itself, and also in terms of the stress that people with mental health problems face in undertaking that income assessment test.Unfortunately, the stress is around failing the ability-to-work assessment, and then the long-winded appeals process, has led to a number of suicides, which is tragic. The culture within DWP, under a number of UK Governments, has made people ill, and this Assembly should send a clear message to state that such a situation is disgraceful and unacceptable. We must emphasise that we must stop harming people before we can actually help them.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I’m glad that Plaid Cymru have chosen for debate the issue of mental health this week, a week in which mental health day was observed throughout the world. Figures show that mental ill health will affect one in four people during their lives, and by 2020, mental ill health-related problems will be second to heart diseases as the leading contributor to the global burden of disease. That is why mental health services continue to be a major priority for this Welsh Labour Government.Last week, I was delighted to attend in the Pierhead building We Need to Talk, a coalition of third sector mental health charities and professional organisations that are campaigning for improved access to psychological therapies for people with mental health problems in Wales. We Need to Talk identified the cost of mental health problems in Wales, estimated at £7.2 billion a year. And the cost associated with poor mental health in the workplace amounts to nearly £1.2 billion a year alone, and that’s equivalent to £860 for every employee in the Welsh workforce. And though these figures are truly staggering, the cost to Wales is even greater, for every individual who suffers from mental health problems is an individual: a mother or a father or a son or a daughter; a loving person suffering, often invisibly alone. The value of the named days such as World Mental Health Day, and debates such as this one, cannot be underestimated. Stigma still resides on this subject, and it is a truth that while the physical injuries such as a broken leg are understandable, the paralysing potential effects of mental health problems can cause a silent challenge for us all. In talking through the issues of mental health this week in my office, it was actually brought to my attention the autobiography of England cricketer Jonathan Trott that had just been published. Trott was a highly successful international cricketer who played for England, as I’m sure many people know, before making headline news in 2013 by returning home from Australia after the first Ashes test. This seemingly super-healthy sportsperson at the peak of his powers writes:‘I hadn’t slept, I hadn’t eaten and I hadn’t been able to stop the throbbing in my head.’He recounts that he had to telephone his father to tell him that he was unable to cope any longer and he was flying home. ‘He didn’t say it’,he said,‘But I knew he’d be disappointed.’And he wrote:‘The man I most wanted to make proud, I’d shamed.’His use of language is illuminating and harrowing. Interestingly, it is his description of his anxiety-related illness and his explicit and public decision to describe his situation as an anxiety-related illness rather than depression that caused controversy itself. Former England captain Michael Vaughan said he felt a ‘little bit conned’, saying:‘When I hear players talking about burnout, I suspect it is an excuse.’This public example of Jonathan Trott, misunderstood by fellow players, seemingly with every trapping of success, is a clear warning to us of the stigma that continues to swirl like the fog proverbial of Baker Street in ‘Sherlock Holmes’. It still surrounds mental health issues. Nine out of 10 people with mental ill health find that stigma and discrimination can be a barrier to everyday activities, and that is why one of the central themes of ‘Together for Mental Health’ is about changing attitudes to mental health culturally, and why Welsh Labour is committed to ending mental health discrimination in the programme for government.I was heartened to hear the statement of the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on the second delivery plan of the Welsh Government’s 10-year cross-governmental strategy, ‘Together for Mental Health’. I acknowledge that there are criticisms, and Sarah Moseley, director of Mind Cymru, whilst welcoming the plan, stated Mind’s concerns that mental health services are significantly underfunded, but yet, in 2015-16, the budget for mental health services in Wales is £587 million, up from £389 million in 2009-10. This equates to 11.4 per cent of the total Welsh NHS budget, the single biggest area of Welsh NHS expenditure. As the health Minister stated yesterday, over the last two financial years, we have announced over £22 million of new funding for a range of new provision across all ages. The delivery plan identifies a priority area that aims to ensure children and young people with mental health problems get better sooner. Yesterday I was fortunate to attend Childline’s thirtieth birthday celebrations in the Senedd with Dame Esther Rantzen, and it is worth noting that NSPCC Cymru, commentating on the delivery, welcomes the emphasis that the Welsh Government has given to prioritising this issue. Recent additional investment into child and adolescent services in Wales should continue, and it’s important that delays in accessing services are further reduced. It’s a shame, therefore, that Plaid Cymru have sought to focus their new motion on their usual preoccupation with powers for politicians, unlike the opposition amendment that addresses this subject. As such, I very much welcome—

Can you wind up, please?

Rhianon Passmore AC: [Continues.]—this important debate and, equally, Welsh Labour Government’s strong determination to confront the challenges of mental health provision head on. Thank you.

Bethan Sayed AC: We’ve had many debates in this Chamber over the years on mental health, and I think, obviously, it’s been a challenge for us to discuss this, but more of a challenge for people to be able to deliver services in this area, and to speak about personal experiences, as many have in this room today. Usually, I start off by speaking about the rights and the protection of the sufferers, but today I just want to tell you a small story about someone who is employed in the mental health service in south Wales who spoke to me over the weekend. She’s an administrator working for a centre for mental health in my region, and she’s not trained in mental health at all. In fact, she’s requested on numerous occasions to be trained up so that when she sees somebody coming through the door, she can know and she can deal with it. She’s had an experience three or four times where one gentleman has rung her telling her that he is stabbing himself physically in his stomach because he doesn’t want to live anymore, and asking how she can help him. Sometimes she can’t refer on to a doctor, because the doctor is seeing somebody else in the clinic and she has told me, ‘I am scared because I have no qualifications, but I am dealing with this man. What if he actually kills himself while doing this? Because the next time, he will die, and I will not be able to save him.’ I think hearing stories like that—. Statistics are important, but when she told me that I just thought, this woman, who’s on the lowest pay grade in the whole of the NHS in that area, is having to deal with such a traumatic experience, and she has to take that back to her family every single night. I think that’s something that we should all remember in this discussion.Of course, I want to discuss employers also. I think it’s important we discuss this in relation to how we can protect employers in Wales. It’s not a nationalistic propaganda discussion. It’s about how, because of the Brexit vote, we can protect workers in our NHS situations, in our public sector work, when they are rolling back on those very workers’ rights that the Labour Party advocated in the first place. If we do not want those powers here, and we want the Conservatives in Westminster to rule over those powers, then why are we in politics? I want those powers here so that we can protect the people who work within our environment and make sure that they are safe working in such environments. We’ve talked here today about employers who, potentially, have refused or will not employ people with mental health problems. I think the stigma is still there, even though I and Llyr and others, and David Melding, have spoken out. I’ve had messages from people saying to me, ‘Well, it’s great that you’ve done that, Bethan, but I still will not tell my employer that I suffer with either bipolar or depression, because I know that if I go into work tomorrow they will look at me differently and they will see me differently, and will think that, by virtue of the fact that I have that depression labelled on me, I will not be able to do my work.’ I think that’s still a massive challenge for the Welsh Government to be able to deal with. What I’m passionate about also is about having more self-esteem and confidence lessons in schools. I’m not necessarily saying we should have mental health lessons, because that may be a danger in and of itself, where we would tell somebody about a condition and they may feel nervous around knowing more about that condition at such a young age. So, that’s why, over the years, I had a meeting with Jane Hutt, when Jane Hutt was the education Minister, about trying to have those well-being lessons in schools so that people, young girls especially, can have the confidence to go out there and not just believe that they are a sexual object walking down the street, with the adverts on display boards, and that they’re going to be objectified for the rest of their lives, and to have that difficulty to empower themselves when they do grow up to be women in this society.I think I’ll finish by saying that it’s very important that we have these debates, but I think it’s much more important that we see action now. Services are struggling and schools have counselling services that are creaking at the seams. We need to take our rhetoric out of this Chamber and make sure that we all campaign in our respective areas to make sure that we end the stigma and also talk to people in a positive way about why their mental illness does not define them. Some people may never be able to totally—. Like a physical illness, it may be able to be treated and be gone forever, but sometimes it will stay with you. That shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing and it shouldn’t define who you are as a person. It should be just part of a bigger picture as to who that person is. I hope that’s what we can leave this Chamber today thinking about. Diolch yn fawr.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I want to focus my comments on services to children and adolescents. Of course, we can’t talk about improving child and adolescent mental health services without talking about CAMHS waiting times. We know that they are still far, far too long and haven’t been restored to the 2013 levels, never mind achieving the improvement that each and every one of us wants to see happening. Waiting times are, of course, important in terms of outcomes. The Gofal survey of mental health service users shows that there is a clear interrelationship between lengthy waiting times for treatment and the likelihood that someone won’t actually state that their mental health and well-being has improved. But, of course, waiting times is just one issue.Nid yw ond yn crafu’r wyneb. Crafu’r wyneb yn unig y mae amseroedd aros—mae’n un agwedd. Mae iselder, gorbryder a hunan-niweidio wedi dod yn rhy gyffredin ymysg cenhedlaeth sydd â llawer o bryderon am bethau fel seiberfwlio, pwysau i gadw at bwysau corff delfrydol ac wrth gwrs, cael cynnig dyfodol o gontractau dim oriau, dyledion myfyrwyr enfawr a chaledi diddiwedd gan genhedlaeth o wleidyddion, gadewch i ni fod yn onest, nad ydynt wedi wynebu yr un o’r pethau hyn yn eu dydd. Rydym i gyd yn gwybod bod buddsoddi yn y blynyddoedd cynnar yn hanfodol i sicrhau canlyniadau cadarnhaol o ran addysg ac iechyd, ac yn arbennig i atal rhai o’r problemau a all godi yn nes ymlaen mewn bywyd.Mae datblygiadau mewn niwrowyddoniaeth hefyd yn dangos y gall blynyddoedd yr arddegau fod yr un mor allweddol i ddatblygiad person â’r blynyddoedd cynnar. Mae cyfraddau problemau iechyd meddwl yn codi’n serth yng nghanol a diwedd y glasoed. Ar gyfer y glasoed rhwng 11 a 16 oed, roedd cyfradd problemau iechyd meddwl yn 13 y cant ymhlith bechgyn a 10 y cant ymhlith merched. Mae’r ffigur hwn yn agos at gyfraddau oedolion o tua 23 y cant—chwarter—erbyn iddynt gyrraedd 18 i 20 oed. Gwyddom hefyd fod 70 y cant o blant a phobl ifanc sy’n dioddef problemau iechyd meddwl heb gael ymyriadau priodol ar oedran digon cynnar—cwbl annerbyniol.Er bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi llawer o sylw i lansiad—neu ail-lansiad, efallai, Plant Iach Cymru ar gyfer plant hyd at saith oed, nid oes strategaeth ar gael ar gyfer gwella iechyd rhai yn eu harddegau, ond mae’r angen am un yn glir. Mae’r gyfradd farwolaethau ymhlith rhai yn eu harddegau rhwng 15 a 19 oed yn uwch yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr, ac ni chafwyd unrhyw ostyngiad yn nifer y marwolaethau o anafiadau bwriadol ymhlith y grŵp oedran rhwng 10 a 18 oed ers tri degawd.Mae angen cynorthwyo plant sydd ag oedolion â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn eu bywydau hefyd wrth gwrs. Gall edrych ar ôl aelod o’r teulu sydd â phroblem iechyd meddwl arwain at effeithiau sylweddol ar iechyd meddwl y gofalwr ei hun, ac wrth gwrs, dyna reswm arall pam rwy’n siŵr ein bod i gyd yn cytuno bod angen gwella cymorth i ofalwyr. Felly, beth y gallwn ei wneud? Wel, mae’n amlwg fod gan ysgolion rôl allweddol i’w chwarae yma ac mae arnom angen dull o weithredu ar sail ysgol gyfan mewn perthynas â hyrwyddo iechyd meddwl a llesiant. Mae angen dysgu disgyblion am broblemau iechyd meddwl posibl a all ddigwydd a’r camau y gellir eu cymryd i gadw’n iach. Mae arnom angen gwersi mwy rhagweithiol, wedi’u hanelu’n benodol at ferched mewn perthynas â chael delwedd iach o gyrff—ac nid merched yn unig, ni ddylai bechgyn ychwaith deimlo pwysau i gydymffurfio â delweddau afrealistig o gyrff. Mae angen i addysg ar berthnasoedd iach ddigwydd hefyd ac mae llawer mwy y gellid ei wneud wrth gwrs. Wrth i mi ddod at ddiwedd fy nghyfraniad, hoffwn gyfeirio at y sefyllfa yng ngogledd Cymru’n benodol.I want to refer specifically to the situation in north Wales as it is today. The reality is that the Betsi Cadwaladr health board is facing a debt of £106 million by the end of this three-financial-year period. They are expected, of course, to make right that debt, but cutting £106 million would lead to some 10 per cent less in expenditure next year. I have to say that the most recent minutes of the board show that 27 finance managers have refused to agree to cuts in their budgets, and this is the important point, of course—most of these managers work in mental health, and many work in the field of learning disabilities. Betsi Cadwaladr, of course, is Wales’s largest health board and is a board under special measures, and those cuts do mean that this important service will be under even greater pressure in ensuing years. Many are already complaining that it’s a cinderella service. Well, given that things are going to be even more difficult financially over the next few months, it is a cause for real concern for all of us, I’m sure. I would be eager to hear the response of the Cabinet Secretary to that particular situation in north Wales as he responds to this debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Bethan Jenkins gave us a very powerful example of somebody having to deal with mental health issues on a day-to-day basis, without any of the training that you would normally expect. My daughter, as a primary school teacher, often tells me about very painful circumstances that she describes of children in her care, which is a daily experience for any primary school teacher, unfortunately, in areas of deprivation. They really do bring tears to your eyes, because those children rely on the school to be their place of safety. I wanted to talk about the importance of the school in helping to resolve some of the issues that children encounter, which if not resolved in school, do end up as pretty substantive mental health problems in adulthood. We know from the Welsh Government’s figures that last year self-harm among young people has reached a five-year high, with more than 1,500 young people between 10 and 19 treated in Welsh hospitals for harming themselves. We also know that children are using self-harm as a way of trying to deal with very difficult emotional states. Often, children will misinterpret events that adults would regard as trivial and unimportant, but, without having the ability to discuss them properly with an adult, will become major issues in the child’s mind. I want to highlight the fact that the Public Policy Institute for Wales report that was published in February focused on the fact that pupils supported by the pupil deprivation grant are at greater risk of mental health problems than other pupils.Yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children spoke about the focus on adverse childhood experiences, and the need to reduce them if we’re not going to have more and more of the same inter-generational problems reoccurring, with people ending up in unemployment, in mental health hospitals, in prison. I absolutely agree with that. So, I think that there’s much that can be done in schools, and I think we have to prevent these adverse childhood experiences of mainly verbal abuse and parental separation being passed down from one generation to the next.

Bethan Sayed AC: I just wanted to pick up on the point you made about deprived areas. I visited a friend who works in a private school in London to talk to him about many of these issues, and, actually, there was isolation from their parents because they were living away from them, and they suffered mental health problems, just as people do in deprived areas.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I wouldn’t disagree with that, but I still think that deprivation is a substantive contributor to emotional ill health. I’d like to pay tribute to Angela Rayner, who’s the shadow Secretary of State for Education in another place, who spoke so courageously about the inability of her mother to love her, and this was in the presence of her mother, in front of about 1,000 women. I think that that was such a courageous act, both on the part of her mother and her, which was really part of her journey to ensure that that inability to love was not passed down to the next generation.One of the things I think I’ve spoken about before is the Roots of Empathy programme, which Action for Children has been running in Llanedeyrn Primary School in my constituency, which has been evaluated as being something that really does deal with children’s agony over the inability to understand what makes for positive relationships. And this is about having a parent with a baby who comes in to the school once a fortnight, and those children being able to develop that relationship. This reduces aggression in the playground and absenteeism. At Cathays High School, we have mindfulness training and restorative practices, which have also ensured the building of emotional resilience in our young people for later life. I think that it’s absolutely clear from the PPI report and other reports that have been done that it has to be a systematic, whole-school approach to emotional health, well-being and resilience. It can’t just be in a single lesson; it’s got to be something that’s carried out across the school, and I think that it then does support children who are having unhappy times elsewhere to at least develop the emotional resilience to overcome them.

Caroline Jones AC: I would like to thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this important debate, allowing us to mark Mental Health Awareness Week. With one in eight people in Wales currently seeking medical help for mental illness and an estimated one in four of us experiencing mental health problems at some point during our lifetimes, it’s clear that we need to give mental health a high priority.It was great to see so many people taking to social media on Monday to help reduce the stigma that is still attached to mental illness. It is truly disturbing that, in the twenty-first century, people suffering with poor mental health have to also deal with stigma, harassment and a total lack of understanding. A survey undertaken by Time to Change found that stigma and discrimination is all pervasive, with close to nine out of 10 service users reporting its negative impact on their lives. Two thirds have stopped doing things because of stigma and two thirds have stopped doing things because of the fear of stigma and discrimination. How often have we heard people suffering from depression being told to, ‘Man up’ or that they needed to get over themselves, or pull themselves together? This is not acceptable. These attitudes prevent people suffering from mental ill health from speaking out or even seeking help. Far too many people are made to feel isolated, ashamed and worthless as a result of their mental health issues. We all have a part to play in making it easier for people with health problems to make friends, to work and lead an absolutely full life.In addition to tackling stigma and discrimination, we have to ensure that any suffering from mental health problems have timely access to treatment. Early access to talking therapies such as cognitive behavioural therapy is proven to improve recovery and reduce the need for more acute services. Mind recommend that the maximum waiting time from referral to first treatment should be 28 days, and when someone presents with a mental health emergency, the wait must be shorter.Of course, if we are to improve mental health services we must ensure that the correct funding is in place. Mental health problems account for around a quarter of all health problems, yet we are spending 11.4 per cent of the NHS Wales budget on mental health. In England, where the mental health budget is not ring-fenced, they are spending 11.9 per cent of the NHS budget on mental health. One local health board, Aneurin Bevan, routinely spends over 17 per cent more than its ring-fenced allocation. PricewaterhouseCoopers, in their review of the financial ring-fencing arrangements for mental health services in Wales, state that the ring-fenced allocation is not based on a robust assessment of healthcare needs. The Welsh Government needs to change the ring-fencing arrangements as a matter of priority.I would like to thank Plaid Cymru for giving us this opportunity to hold this debate. I welcome and support their call to educate young people about mental health issues. However, we cannot support the devolution of employment law and will therefore be supporting the Welsh Conservative amendment. Thank you.

Dawn Bowden AC: I think much has already been said very powerfully in this debate, and covered, so I’m not going to touch on those areas that have already been covered. I want to confine my comments, quite briefly, to support for mental health in the workplace. Could I start by commending the intent behind this motion from Plaid Cymru? But I believe the third proposal of the motion is a diversion away from what should be the main thrust of the debate. We could spend many months or longer engaging in legal arguments with the UK Government over the competence of this devolved administration legislating on employment matters. And those arguments are certainly pivotal when it comes to addressing, for example, applying the provisions of the insidious Trade Union Act 2016 here in Wales to devolved public services, but they are not what we should be focusing on when we come to talk about mental health issues in the workplace. We do, of course, already have employment law that provides protection for employees against discrimination under the Equality Act 2010, although I do understand the mover’s reservations about the UK Government’s commitment to that. ‘Is the legislation strong enough?’ is a question, of course, that one can always pose, but perhaps the question should be, ‘Is the legislation being effectively applied in the workplace?’ If I learned one thing during my 30-odd years as a trade union activist and organiser, it is that you can put in place as much legislation as you like, but you will never put an end to discrimination of any sort in the workplace unless you tackle the culture of prejudice at work and ensure that robust support mechanisms are in place for victims of discrimination. That’s why I am fully in support of the amendment from Jane Hutt, which recognises the important role for employers in supporting people with mental health issues at work. I’m also pleased that, in his statement in this Chamber yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport made reference to the Welsh Government’s support for businesses and organisations to recognise that mental ill health should not be a barrier to effective working. There are some excellent examples of major companies in Wales, like Admiral and Dŵr Cymru, that provide comprehensive mental health awareness training for their employees, not only to help them in their engagement with customers, but also to support colleagues in the workplace. These companies see raising mental health awareness as an integral part of their health and safety strategies. I also want to give recognition to the important role that trade unions in Wales play in both raising awareness of mental health issues at work, but also being at the forefront of providing that robust support in the workplace. I’m particularly proud of the work undertaken by my own union, Unison Cymru Wales, which has organised training courses to appoint mental health champions to enable them to best support colleagues suffering with stress, anxiety and depression. So, in conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m just grateful for having had the opportunity to speak in this debate and to support the amendment from Jane Hutt, which, as I said, I think would make this a motion that all in the Chamber could support, and would provide the impetus for tackling issues around mental health in our workplaces.

Thank you. I call the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I’d like to thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward the debate and Members who have contributed to a mature and sensible debate, which I think reflects the approach that this Chamber has taken through a range of terms on this issue. Because, as others have said, we all recognise that mental health issues will affect all of us at some time or another, whether directly as individuals experiencing that, or friends, families or loved ones. I do support the principles of the motion today. Of course, Monday was World Mental Health Day, when I launched the Government’s second delivery plan to support our 10-year cross-Government strategy, ‘Together for Mental Health’, and yesterday, during my oral statement, we went through that delivery plan in more detail for the next three years. We set out 10 priority areas for improvement, and how we expect to see that driven forward and actually delivered. I’ll start with the area of stigma and discrimination, which, again, we discussed yesterday. I’m pleased to hear a range of Members raise this issue in their contributions today, and also to reflect back to those Members in this Chamber who actually talked about their own experiences of suffering from mental health illness. I think it’s really important that we all display an element of leadership here, as individuals and as Members in this place, in the way we conduct ourselves. The way we talk about these issues does make a difference.Whilst we know that attitudes are changing, there’s still much more to do. That’s why it’s a priority within the new programme for government and it’s also a key element of the ‘Together for Mental Health’ delivery plan too. I’m really pleased that other Members in this Chamber, in every party, have recognised the value of the Time to Change Wales campaign. It’s the first national campaign of its kind to help end discrimination and stigma for those who experience mental health problems. Of course, the main aim of that is not just to challenge those problems, it’s to try and change the way we think and talk about these issues, as well. That partnership that’s brought that together is with Mind, Hafal and Gofal, and the Welsh Government is proud to have supported that with £0.5 million of funding.We’ll also be supporting a state of stigma event early in the new year, run in partnership with Mind, Gofal and Hafal, to make sure that this issues does not fall off the agenda. There’s much that we have done, which we should be proud of, but there’s still much more to do.The issues about stigma and discrimination will also inform the new young person’s anti-stigma programme that will be led by the Time to Change partnership. Over the course of the project, we expect young champions to engage with at least 5,000 young people and aim to develop a whole-school approach to mental health awareness, anti-stigma messaging and activity to reinforce that.I also recognise that many Members referred to the world of work in their contributions. Of course, as we set out yesterday, again, mental health problems can have a huge impact on someone’s ability to work, but also good work is good both for people’s physical health and mental health too. So, through our Healthy Working Wales programme, we’re supporting employers to recognise that mental health is not necessarily a barrier to work and sustainable employment is often the best way to support individuals to help them to recover from any episodes of mental ill health. That Healthy Working Wales programme allows us to support employers to support their own staff to improve their own mental health and well-being. Over 3,000 employers are already engaged with Healthy Working Wales and between them, they employ over 460,000 people in Wales. So, there is significant reach with that programme already.To build on this and take it forward, we’ve developed a programme, funded through European structural funds, to sustain people in work and help people to move closer to work as well. That’s got a focus on supporting people with mental health problems. So, the in-work support service aims to help over 4,000 people and 500 employers by providing rapid access to work-focused therapies for those at risk of long-term sickness absence. The out-of-work service aims to assist 6,000 people to overcome health barriers to employment, moving them closer to work or actually into work. These programmes have secured over £8 million of European structural funding support over three years.Again, I’m happy to recognise what’s been said, not just in today’s debate, but during yesterday’s statement and many others, and I’m sure that will continue to be the case in the future, and that’s about how we support children and young people. Again, this is a key element, as you’d expect it to be, of our approach to improving mental health and well-being and tackling stigma and discrimination. We’ll continue to have debates around CAMHS and what we’re doing until we recognise that waiting times are in a position where all of us recognise that we’re in an acceptable position and we see real and sustained improvement. I do not shy away from that. That is why it is a priority within our delivery plan. In particular, the broader objective to develop resilience and emotional well-being amongst children and young people to make sure that before children reach teenage years, we’ve actually helped to develop that resilience and emotional well-being so that we do see fewer problems arising at that time and later on in adult life.As you’ll have heard yesterday from the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, there’s strong evidence that the well-being of children is linked to their educational outcomes. Children with higher levels of emotional, behavioural, social and school well-being, on average, have higher levels of academic achievement. They also appear to be more engaged in school, further and higher education, work and other aspects of life in later years. That’s why we will be strengthening our work with schools and colleges to help children and young people feel better and, hopefully, to tackle some of the newer problems that people like myself did not have to face. For example, the internet and social networking provide different challenges and problems that we need to be aware of.So, we aim to do more than intervene when problems start to emerge; we aim to promote actively that positive well-being. And that’s why we are supporting school counselling services. They’re in every secondary school and for year 6 pupils as well. I was pleased to hear Jenny Rathbone mention the fact that some schools are positively using their PDG money to actually help with this area of school counselling to promote well-being for children and the whole parent community. There is, of course, the opportunity in the PSE part of the curriculum: it’s standard, it’s expected, and so it’s a part of every curriculum for pupils in maintained schools, and the opportunity is there to think about how we positively promote messages in this area, too. But, just as a matter of—. This is a matter where we’ve put £13 million in grant funding over five years into this area. It’s now part of the RSG for local authorities to make sure that that money is available for a school counselling service.In terms of the role of public services—and, again, I’m pleased to see these mentioned in the motion—you’ll be aware the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires all public bodies to maximise their contribution to the well-being goals, and that is about physical and mental health and well-being as well. You will, of course, be aware that the Assembly Commission and other public bodies—over 30 public bodies—have signed the Time to Change Wales organisational pledge.I do want to deal with the reference to employment law in the motion, and here I agree with Dawn Bowden, who I knew in a different life, when she had a job that people respected in a trade union and I was a lawyer, which wasn’t necessarily respected by everyone, but the reality was always that the law would say one thing, but it was all about how you enforce your rights. Actually, in mental health stigma and discrimination, the challenge was how you get to that point where you’ve resolved those issues without needing to go to the law. That was almost always about organisational culture and changing the minds of employers, because often the policy position that each employer had sounded perfect. The challenge was always: how do you deal with that and how do you make that change? The law is part of it, but that cultural challenge is an even bigger part. I’d say to colleagues in Plaid Cymru, we will be supporting the Conservative amendment. If that isn’t passed, we will ask the Chamber to support the Government amendment. But, having an honest disagreement about the devolution of employment law does not mean that we don’t care. It does not mean this is not a priority for the Government. It’s simply disagreement on how we get there and where powers should lie.I just want to finish on this part, because, in today’s debate and previously, there’s been a real measure of cross-party support and consensus. It’s how the mental health Measure was passed in the first place, and each party in this Chamber that’s been here for the last few terms has a real share of credit for the way that Measure was introduced and is being implemented. I hope that we maintain that broad consensus, because each of us has a shared responsibility and ability to influence this debate positively, so I look forward to working with people across each of the parties, because we recognise that there’s much we have already achieved, but also much more to do until all of us can say that we’re happy and satisfied. Many thanks.

Thank you. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate. Rhun.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, and may I thank everyone who has taken part in the constructive discussion this afternoon for the contributions from across the Chamber? We’ve heard very powerful accounts. I’ll name Bethan Jenkins as one who brought the experiences of one constituent to our attention as part of this discussion in a very powerful way.Felly, diolch i chi am eich holl gyfraniadau. Nid yw’n syndod fod llawer o gytundeb ar yr egwyddor hon ynglŷn â’r hyn rydym yn ceisio’i gyflawni o ran agweddau pobl, ac rwy’n croesawu cyfraniadau’r Aelodau o bob rhan o’r Siambr, ar draws y rhaniadau gwleidyddol. Yn ymarferol, o ran polisi, dywedodd Angela Burns fod y gwahaniaethau rhyngom yn seiliedig ar saith o eiriau. Rwy’n gresynu na fydd y Ceidwadwyr, ynghyd â Llafur ac UKIP, yn mabwysiadu’r her o geisio datganoli cyfraith cyflogaeth. Dywedodd Angela Burns ei fod yn bwyslais cenedlaetholgar. Rydym yn ceisio datganoli yn y maes hwn i bwrpas, a chyda bygythiadau ei phlaid yn San Steffan i hawliau cyflogaeth pobl, mae angen i ni sicrhau bod gennym yn ein dwylo—ni, pobl Cymru—y pwerau i warchod buddiannau’r Cymry, yn enwedig rhai o’r bobl fwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas. Felly, cytunodd UKIP â’r Ceidwadwyr; dewisodd Llafur hefyd, yn eu gwelliannau, wrthod y syniad o gymryd cyfrifoldeb yn y maes hwn ac ymddiried yn Llywodraeth Dorïaidd y DU yn lle hynny, er bod yr Aelod dros Ferthyr Tudful wedi cydnabod ein bod mewn cyd-destun gwahanol iawn yn dilyn y bleidlais ym mis Mehefin, ac yn wynebu bygythiad gwirioneddol, o bosibl, i rai o’r deddfau sy’n diogelu pobl yn ein cymdeithas, a deddfau sy’n diogelu gweithwyr â phroblemau iechyd meddwl.Ond, gan roi’r mater pwysig hwnnw i’r naill ochr, mae’r ddadl hon yn dod â ni i gyd at ein gilydd yn briodol yn ein penderfyniad i fynd i’r afael â rhagfarn yn ein hagweddau tuag at iechyd meddwl. Ar y pwynt o anghytundeb, byddwn yn apelio ar Lafur a’r Ceidwadwyr i ailystyried eu gwelliannau i ddiogelu ein gweithwyr mwyaf agored i niwed, a byddwn yn dweud, ‘Byddwch yn ddewr a cheisio’r pwerau a fydd o bosibl yn gwneud ymladd y rhagfarn honno’n haws yn y dyfodol’.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. 5. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Autism

We move on to our next item, which is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on autism. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM6114 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Recognises that there is a need for specific legislation for autism, and calls on the Welsh Government to bring forward an autism (Wales) bill during the fifth Assembly term.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Autism is a lifelong developmental condition affecting more than one in 100 children and adults in Wales—an estimated 34,000 autistic people, each affected in a different way. Together with families and carers, there are around 136,000 people in the autism community living in Wales. Our motion recognises a need for specific legislation for autism and calls on the Welsh Government to bring forward an autism (Wales) Bill during the fifth Assembly term.On 21 January 2015, I led an individual Member’s debate here that called on the Welsh Government to introduce an autism Act for Wales. This was passed, with 29 Members voting in favour, including representatives of all parties, and none voting against, although there were 21 abstentions. The autism community in Wales is looking to us today to go further and provide a clear and resounding message that it expects an autism (Wales) Bill during this Assembly term. Placing specific duties on local authorities and health boards would lead to greater clarity on the care and support that people with autism can expect. Although the autism spectrum disorder strategic action plan for Wales was a world first, autism doesn’t have a statutory identity in Wales, which means that people are often not able to access effective support unless they have associated mental health problems or learning difficulties. There are serious concerns that the Welsh Government’s refresh strategy will not be robust enough to make the changes we all want to see, unless it is backed by legislation. For Wales to reassert itself at the vanguard of autism, it needs an autism Act, giving people with autism the confidence that they will receive the support they need.The packed November 2014 meeting of the Assembly cross-party autism group voted unanimously in favour of calling for an autism Act.

Lee Waters AC: Would the Member give way? Autism is a neurological condition with distressing co-morbidities like anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder. It affects one in 100 people. Tourette’s syndrome is a neurological disorder with distressing co-morbidities like obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety. Why is one worthy of an Act and the other not?

Mark Isherwood AC: Please speak to the autism community in Wales—there are cross-cutting issues—as you would learn from them. But this motion is specific to the concerns of a community who’ve been campaigning many years for this and are being left behind the rest of the United Kingdom on this. Now, from Ystradgynlais, we heard at that meeting that people are let down and angry that they have to fight so hard to get the support they need, and that it’s important that people with autism are no longer invisible to services. From Tydfil, we heard that autism shouldn’t be a postcode lottery. From Blaenau Gwent, we heard that adult services were basically non-existent, and that it was very frustrating, as a parent, to have to fight tooth and nail for your child to receive the services they so desperately need; from Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire that the strategy promised to deliver so much, but people are being pushed into further crisis; from Gwynedd and Anglesey that an autism Act was needed to safeguard and strengthen services and ensure consistency of support; and from Bridgend that there was concern about exactly where autism fitted in. Concern had also been raised with me over support in Flintshire and Wrexham. Correspondence from Denbighshire social services had stated that a child with autism would only be eligible for a service from the department if he experienced an additional physical or learning disability. But an autistic spectrum condition, or ASD—although I don’t like the ‘disorder’ word—is a condition in its own right, and the autism strategy states that‘formal diagnosis...should be neither a pre-requisite for a full assessment of each person’s wider needs nor should it be a reason for not intervening in a timely manner.’Unfortunately, that is not fully appreciated by those who provide the services but don’t have a statutory duty to do so. Autism is neither mental health nor learning difficulty, but falls between stools, as there is nowhere else to go.I chaired last Friday’s first north Wales annual autism conference, where I was given a copy of a letter to the health board from various parents stating that child and adolescent mental health services, or CAMHS, are failing, with private autism assessments by experts otherwise employed by CAMHS being dismissed. An e-mail received yesterday from a mum in Monmouthshire states:‘My child deserves to be educated and receive healthcare and the chance to gain meaningful employment as an adult. I as a mother should not have to be placed under the enormous strain and stress to gain these things that come as standard to other children.’The response by the National Autistic Society Cymru to the refreshed autistic spectrum disorder strategic action plan consultation document was written with input and feedback from their branch members across Wales. And let us remember that this is a member-led organisation representing people on the spectrum themselves, their families and carers.

Simon Thomas AC: Would the Member give way?

Mark Isherwood AC: Yes.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m grateful to the Member. I’ve met, as he has, I’m sure, with many of the groups that he’s mentioned in his speech. He talked about the action plan. Surely, one of the things we should be looking at is to examine how the action plan works and how, in the fullness of time, we might need to put that on a statutory footing to ensure the right access and the level playing field that he’s been talking about. That can be done by an Act, or it could be done by other legislative means, but what’s important is that people have the statutory right to those services.

Mark Isherwood AC: It’s important they have a statutory right to those services. We can’t wait for another refreshed strategy; we’ve waited too long, and I’ll address the concerns that justify that position expressed by the community to me as I develop my speech.Well, this stated that statutory backing to the strategy, combined with much closer measurement of progress to meet the key aims of the strategy, is vital in securing the change we all want to see for autistic children and adults and their family members. That’s based on feedback from people in the community itself. NAS Cymru’s 2015 online survey to find out what matters to people in Wales with autism received 668 responses from autistic people living in Wales or, where they were unable to participate, their parents or carers. Nearly 90 per cent said that specific autism legislation is needed on similar lines in Wales to that already existing in England and Northern Ireland, to make their strategies come to life. The survey report states:‘despite the progress made, the needs of autistic people are still being overlooked at a local level. Families and adults on the spectrum report having to wait years for a diagnosis. Local authorities don’t know how many autistic people are in their area and so aren’t planning appropriately for the support they need. Professionals aren’t able to support people on the spectrum properly, as they lack training and understanding. It has become increasingly clear that decisive action from the Government is needed.’It recommends an autism Act for Wales‘puts a duty on health boards to ensure…a clear pathway to diagnosis of autism in every area; puts a duty on local authorities to record the numbers of autistic children and adults in their area to inform planning processes’.And don’t tell me it can’t be done, because the other parts of the UK somehow manage it. It says every local area should use‘this data, alongside consultation with local people on the spectrum and their families to develop a plan on how they will meet the needs of the local autistic population; makes sure that this data is regularly reviewed and shared between children’s and adult services to ensure smooth transitions for autistic young people; ensures statutory guidance is developed to set out which professionals need what levels of training to ensure that autistic children and adults are supported by professionals who understand them; makes clear that autistic children and adults shouldn’t be turned away from accessing public services because they’re seen as “too able” and their IQ “too high”; is regularly reviewed and monitored to make sure clear progress is being made.’Although the Welsh Government have said that not one response to its consultation on the refreshed plan asked for an Act, an autism Act wasn’t part of the consultation document or the consultation questions. The Welsh Government have not yet published the responses to that consultation, but we suspect there are lots of references to what an Act could and would do, i.e. ensure a clear pathway to diagnosis; training for professionals; local plans developed for services; and support based on individual need. Without legislation, a strategy is a voluntary wish list with no obligation on local authorities or local health boards to implement it, and therefore no redress. According to the consultation on the refreshed autism strategy, the new integrated autism service was due to begin from 2016, but the Welsh Local Government Association are only just collecting data on what a service should look like. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 establishes seven regional partnership boards that must respond to a population assessment. One of the core themes of the area plans following population assessments includes mental health and ‘learning disability/autism’. However, autism is a condition in its own right, and coupling it again with learning disabilities will not give a clear picture of the needs of people with autism. In fact, it insults them. Local authorities have a mental health and a learning disability team but not necessarily a specific autism team. The risk therefore remains that autistic people will continue to fall down the gap between them. There is no mandatory autism training for professionals. The population assessment is a general assessment and may not go into enough detail to be able to make an assessment of autism, which requires input from several agencies. There are many genetic syndromes, such as fragile X syndrome, which may underlie an autism diagnosis. These diagnoses should also be seen as meaningful by services and be used to help guide support. The Act makes no reference to diagnosis, and the new eligibility criteria could actually mean that autistic people are deemed not eligible for care and support. Therefore, we can’t rely on the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act to meet the needs and rights of the autism community in Wales. In response to the January 2015 debate, the then health Minister, Mark Drakeford, said his officials would monitor spend after ring-fencing of the autism money for local authorities was removed. We need to know how much each local authority has received and how the money is being spent. England’s autism Act covers only adults. The Northern Ireland Act covers all ages and all Government departments. Wales needs an autism Act to meet the needs of children and adults with autism spectrum conditions in Wales, and to protect and promote the rights of both adults and children with autism in Wales. Four of the five parties represented here made a commitment to autism legislation in their manifestos this year, and thousands have signed an online petition in favour of an autism Act for Wales. It’s time to make it happen.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you. I’m very pleased to take part in this important debate to draw attention to some of the matters that people who live with autism face in west Wales, and especially showing my support for an autism Act.I’m sure that Members have received heartbreaking correspondence from constituents who are frustrated with the long waiting times in diagnosis for their children. In the meantime, these parents have to see their children continuing in the education system without access to the vital support that they need. This can harm the social skills and the communication skills of their children, and harm their progress in education in general. In Pembrokeshire, we’re very lucky to have a branch of the National Autistic Society. They are a very determined and organised branch who continue to link up with the local authority and the health board, and also Assembly Members. So, I want to take this opportunity to thank the people who are involved in the local branch, some of whom are in the gallery today, who continue to work with me and give me the latest information about the challenges that face people who live with autism in Pembrokeshire. Through this relationship, that’s why I know more about the local provision and what improvements need to be made.It’s clear that we are in the middle of a significant change in terms of autism services in west Wales. I have no doubt that things are trying to be put in place to improve the situation. However, Hywel Dda local health board and Pembrokeshire County Council can do more to better convey any development to local support groups and parents so that we can ensure that the right support is targeted for those who need it and that nobody slips through the net. It is vitally important that the responsible authorities do link up with stakeholders regularly so that people are aware of any changes to services. Unfortunately, the latest feedback that I’ve received from local parents in my area suggests that the stakeholders of the local health board haven’t met since March, and so the concerns of local people don’t receive the attention that they deserve. That shows why it’s time to have an autism Act in Wales.Waiting times for diagnosis have become more of a problem in Pembrokeshire because of the difficulty in getting the latest figures for diagnosis from the local health board. It’s vital that the health board does gather the appropriate data so that they can plan provision of services clearly. An autism Act would put a duty on local authorities to record the number of autistic children and adults in their local areas, and this would lead to the development of their practices. As we in Pembrokeshire already know, the new strategy itself won’t be enough to achieve the change that is needed to get to grips with local provision. In 2013, the National Autistic Society in Pembrokeshire put together a petition that called on the Welsh Government to ensure prompt diagnosis for children with autism, wherever they live in Wales, so that they can live full lives. The petition received over 900 signatures in a few weeks. There was support not just within Pembrokeshire but across Wales. We saw improvements following that campaign, and a scheme was put in place to shorten the waiting times, but this scheme was put in place for only one year. That’s exactly why we need legislation: to put a duty on health boards across Wales to ensure that there is a clear pathway to diagnosis of autism in all parts of Wales. Unfortunately, parents in Pembrokeshire aren’t aware of the services that are available to them, and we need to establish a clear path by the local health board and the local authority so that parents know what specific services are available and how they can be accessed. It’s clear to me, at present, that the people that I represent aren’t aware of the clear path, and so they aren’t aware of the services that are available and how they can access them.An autism Act would ensure that there is a duty placed on the relevant authorities so that people are clear then about the services that are available and how those services are provided in our communities.There must be an acknowledgement that a one-size-fits-all approach isn’t appropriate for everyone and isn’t the right way forward for people who live with autism. Autism is a spectrum condition, which means that everyone shares some areas. There aren’t two people who have exactly the same symptoms. Putting forward legislation would ensure that local issues, such as waiting times for diagnosis, could be tackled because data would be collected at an appropriate level and, more importantly, those people who live with autism would know what support can be expected at a local level.So, in concluding, Deputy Presiding Officer, more support for people living with autism is vital, and I do believe that the right way that this Assembly can give that support is to put forward an autism Act during this Assembly.

Hefin David AC: My working experience has been touched by autism. As a university lecturer, I was teaching a student who spent an entire class looking at a computer screen and not paying attention to me, and I remember getting annoyed by this. At the end of the session, before I could actually speak to the student, he came up to me and he said, ‘I really appreciate your teaching today, but I need you to know I have Asperger’s and the focus on my computer screen is how I focus and block out some of the noise that goes on in the rest of the class’. It really did move me and it made a significant impact on me as a university lecturer. Therefore, this debate today, I feel, is a hugely important one.As a new Member, I’ve noticed that opposition day debates do tend to present motions in very simple terms—if we’re for or against something—and I feel that this motion doesn’t truly reflect the complex realities that are present in our constituencies, and certainly in some of the cases that I’ve experienced in my constituency. So, if the purpose of this motion is to create a broader, deeper and more thoughtful discussion in this Chamber, then I hope I can contribute to it. Whether specific legislation is needed, I’d like to consider that. I note that in the motion we’re being asked to consider and commit to specific legislation in the next five years, but I remain uncertain as to exactly what that legislation could contain. I listened very carefully to Mark Isherwood, who raised some very serious concerns. He mentioned the postcode lottery, invisible services and the consistency of support, and he argued that these things lead to a statutory duty for us to intervene. He did mention—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you very much. Thank you for taking the intervention. I’d be very happy to supply you with a copy of a proposed draft autism Bill, and the reason we’ve brought this forward today is because, until today, we were of the belief that most of the people in this Chamber supported such an Act, so today is becoming a bit of a wake-up call, for not just this party, but a great many other people.

Hefin David AC: I take the point, and I think that the draft autism Bill is worth looking at. The point I’m making, really, is that the need for legislation shouldn’t be ruled out, and that further investigation of that Act is necessary.I’ve held discussions with residents affected by autism in my community, and affecting their families, and I’ve taken up those concerns with my local council as a councillor, and I’ve taken up their concerns as an Assembly Member, so I know exactly what you’re talking about, and I intend to continue to be an advocate for autism and people with autism. I’ll be meeting the Caerphilly branch on NAS Cymru in Bryn Meadows on 11 November, and Steffan Lewis will be there as well for that meeting. Mark Isherwood has mentioned the social services and well-being Act that only came into effect in April, and the question I’ve got is: does that Act contain measures that will provide support for people with autism, particularly statutory duties for care? [Interruption.] I appreciate that. We don’t know that; it only came into effect in April, and we need to give it time to find out. We need to know whether some of the shortcomings that have existed so far will be addressed by that Act, and there hasn’t been enough time for us to know that for sure. I’d offer my thanks to the Minister—I appreciate the concerns that have been raised, and I’ve raised them myself with the Minister. She told me that she’s of the view that the integrated autism service, and other measures, should be given time to be fully implemented and assessed before considering whether there’s a need for autism law, and she said that this would allow any remaining gaps or issues to be identified, and will allow an assessment of whether legislation is required to address them. I gathered from that that the Minister isn’t ruling out legislation. Yesterday and today I exchanged e-mail correspondence with a Caerphilly resident who told me that she had battled for a diagnosis for her own child from a very young age, and I believe she’s present in the gallery today. She felt there was just no-one to listen to her concerns, and she is still struggling because of the scars left by that experience. [Interruption.] Yes, I’ll take an intervention.

Julie Morgan AC: One of my Cardiff North constituents contacted me today about this debate—she has two sons with autism, and has had great difficulties in getting diagnoses and post-diagnosis support, one of the issues being the combination of autism and extreme anxiety. Does the Member agree that these issues do need to be addressed, and that what we’re exploring, really, is whether an autism Bill would address these issues, or whether they can be addressed in other ways?

Hefin David AC: Yes, I absolutely agree with that, and the Member for Cardiff North seems to have had very similar representations to those that I’ve had. Therefore, if we are to vote with the Government today, I’d suggest that we ask the Minister to provide some assurances in her response that these issues are going to be addressed and closely monitored, and that the need for future legislation continues to be considered. If she’s able to provide those assurances, I’m willing to accept, for now, the advice I received that new laws and refreshed measures will have a positive effect on the issues of assessment of needs, and that they will be subject to continual review. I will accept that if the Minister’s willing to provide those assurances. I’d add that if a review of progress of the social services Act reveals shortcomings, and they are not then addressed as well in the additional learning needs Bill, then I would advocate additional legislation. However, I strongly feel that committing to legislation now will not solve the problem if that legislation overlaps with the provision that is starting to take effect. I will therefore be voting against the motion, but would ask Members in this Chamber and those in the gallery to accept that we reserve the right to call for legislation at a later date, if that is necessary.

Suzy Davies AC: Minister, Hefin David and Julie Morgan, the reasons why we are asking for an autism Act and the reason this was in the manifestos of other parties, and the reason why other parties in this place are of the same mind is that the autism spectrum disorder strategic action plan just didn’t work. The refreshed plan doesn’t look like it’s going to work. Now, I’ll happily accept—I will happily accept—that there have been some improvements, not least, actually, in further education and higher education, and that some public services have developed a better awareness and some families have felt included in informing delivery. Nevertheless, the evaluation of the original plan identified a number of weaknesses, which led to an uneven impact and difficulty in directing developments across Wales. And that’s led to some uncomfortable truths. Just look at our own casework—everyone will have had this—what the strategic action plan hasn’t fixed and still isn’t fixing. Autistic patients whose referrals for mental ill health, related or not to their autism, are not being progressed once their ASD is known. Is that a lack of awareness, or is it a lack of specialist staff? Children waiting two or more years for formal diagnosis, sometimes over the tricky period transitioning from primary to secondary school—a lack of awareness or a lack of specialist staff? One local authority in my region made such a Horlicks of its local plan that, one year, having done nothing with its ring-fenced money, it gave pretty much the whole lot, last minute, to a charity to try and do something with it—a lack of awareness and a lack of specialist staff. The desperate e-mails that reflect that are still coming in. There is no guarantee in the refreshed plan that awareness raising and training will be carried out by those best placed to do it, nor does it make it plain who needs that training. It’s been pleasing to hear that mountain rescue teams have sought training, but why haven’t bus drivers? School staff may have had training, but where are the hotel receptionists and the shop assistants asking for this training? As now seems obvious to me when I look back at my previous career, where are the lawyers asking for this training? Because, unfortunately, people with autistic spectrum conditions don’t live in a cotton-wool world of switched-on public services, they live in a real world, which doesn’t always make sense, where needs go unmet, and where other people are unpredictable, misleading and sometimes just wrong. I worry that, with so many financial and other delivery pressures on local authorities and health services, we will still be talking about the lack of this and the lack of that unless we underpin all those good intentions with rights—enforceable rights for people with autistic spectrum conditions and their carers, if they have them. Any structures, especially workforce planning, still needs to be designed on data evidence, and I’m not sure that strategic plans can really bear down on data gathering and what that’s for. I cringe at the suggestion that councils should report on their now non-ring-fenced autism expenditure, because what are you going to do if it’s not very much and the results are poor, Minister? Arm yourself with some statutory powers to get all the sectors delivering your priorities for people with autism: diagnostic capacity, timely and relevant support delivery, and some deep and broad training—[Interruption.]—just two seconds, yes—for key professionals and customer-facing staff, who we all meet in our daily lives. Please be quick.

David J Rowlands AC: Thank you. Yes, very, very quickly, I understand that some local authorities appear to delay diagnosis of autism because, once a person reaches the age of 18, they no longer have responsibility for that person. Surely an Act could lay down time limits on local authorities to instigate diagnosis.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, one of the purposes of an autism Act would be to make sure that it covers all ages, so that this transition age of 16, 18, or even 21 or 25 in some cases, is irrelevant. This is about individuals, regardless of how old they are, their rights and what they should be able to demand from public services and the rest of society. Seven years ago, and this is back in 2009, after the Wales ASD strategy, the Autism Act 2009 became the first piece of disability-specific legislation passed in England. It didn’t go far enough, it didn’t include children, and the guidance didn’t really create a role for the third sector and co-production. And if you meet the members of local NAS branches in my region, you will be meeting experts in their field. They know what good support looks like for people with autism, their carers and the professional service providers, so why would we be squandering this social capital?The Autism Act was a backbench Bill that became law and, as well as entering our names into the ballot here in similar cause, the Welsh Conservatives have consistently called on you, the Welsh Government, to introduce your own, better autism Act. And while you may point to the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act as a reason not to do so, that Act has not improved diagnosis and will not support data gathering or training. This Assembly is in balance. If you refuse to introduce your own autism Act, you face the probability of a backbench Bill during the course of this Assembly, and I’m remembering those manifesto commitments from other parties. Anyone rolling back on those manifesto commitments will be betraying 36,000 families in Wales, so I ask you to think very carefully about that. Would you be brave enough to whip Labour Members to reject an Assembly Member’s autism Bill? Will you refuse a Bill just because there are other conditions that could equally be legislated upon? Or will you be a wise Government and seek cross-party consensus on a Bill of your own?

Dai Lloyd AC: It’s a pleasure to participate in this debate as the first chair of one of the first cross-party groups in this Assembly back in 2000, and it was a cross-party group on autism. There was a shortage of services back in 1999 and we’re having the same debates now. Nothing has changed. I read the Conservative motion here, and they propose that that the National Assembly for Wales.‘Recognises that there is a need for specific legislation for autism, and calls on the Welsh Government to bring forward an autism (Wales) bill during the fifth Assembly term.’I would agree with that. I agree with that having been a GP for 32 years in Swansea, and having been one of the first Members of this Assembly. We’ve been having these debates about autism and the absence of services since the inception of this Assembly. Yes, we’ve had schemes, plans, we’ve had strategies and we’ve had meetings with all sorts of people. I still meet with my patients, you may be aware—I may not have made it clear that I still am a GP these days, and I still meet with patients who have autism—. Hefin.

Hefin David AC: Just a point—you know, you’re saying that things haven’t changed since 1999, but would you acknowledge that the social services Act, which was Wales-designed, Welsh-born and Wales-introduced, could have that effect? Would you accept that?

Dai Lloyd AC: There’s no evidence to accept that at the moment, okay, Hefin. And I’ll develop the arguments that will hopefully help others to see that. Achos y broblem, yn y bôn, pan mae yna glaf a theulu fel arfer yn fy wynebu ac maen nhw’n credu efallai fod awtistiaeth ar y plentyn neu gyda’r oedolyn—mae yna oedi aruthrol mewn diagnosis awtistiaeth dros y blynyddoedd. Weithiau, nid ydym yn gwneud y diagnosis nes bod pobl yn oedolion. Dyna pam nad yw’n addas i’w gael o dan y ddeddfwriaeth ‘additional learning needs’. Mae yna oedolion sydd angen diagnosis.Mae yna ddeddfwriaeth newydd gerbron, ond mae’r system yn gymhleth. Dim jest mater i wasanaethau cymdeithasol a gofal ydy hwn, mae’n fater i addysg, mae’n fater i iechyd, ac mae’n fater i’r sector gwirfoddol. Mae’n gofyn am gydlynu aruthrol, a’r cydlynu aruthrol yma—nid yw’n digwydd y rhan fwyaf o’r amser. Achos rydych yn cael diagnosis yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, fel rheol ar ôl hir oedi—mae yna wahanol arbenigwyr i fynd rownd. Fe gewch chi ddiagnosis weithiau’n cymryd blynyddoedd. Mae’r ddarpariaeth weithiau y tu allan i’r sector iechyd—mewn addysg, efo gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ac weithiau mae’r ddarpariaeth yn well darpariaeth yn y sector gwirfoddol. Mae yna waith bendigedig yn cael ei wneud yn y sector gwirfoddol—ni allem wneud hebddo. Mae’r ddarpariaeth yn dlawd—rydym yn ffaelu ein teuluoedd efo’r diagnosis cymhleth yma. Mae’r diagnosis yn gymhleth, mae ymddygiad yr unigolyn ag awtistiaeth yn gymhleth ac yn anodd i’w ddilyn ac i’w ddeall, ac mae’n anodd trin y bobl yma ac nid oes byth ddigon o gefnogaeth. Rwyf wedi bod yn pregethu fel hyn yn y lle hwn ers bron i 17 mlynedd, oni bai am y pum mlynedd anffodus yna pan nad oeddwn yma ac yn delio â phobl ag awtistiaeth yn llawn amser. Nid yw’r sefyllfa wedi newid. Mae angen i rywbeth newid, achos rydym ni’n dal i sôn am strategaethau, cynllun, darpariaeth fan hyn, darpariaeth fan draw, ond ar ddiwedd y dydd, nid oes dim byd wedi newid. Dyna pam rydw i’n cefnogi’r angen am ddeddfwriaeth sicr. Mae’r bobl yma wedi bod yn disgwyl am flynyddoedd—fel rheol, mewn dioddefaint, mewn trallod a’r nesaf peth i ddim cefnogaeth, ac achos nid oes yna ddigon o weithwyr ar y llawr i’w cefnogi nhw fel teuluoedd. Mae’n amser cydnabod hynny. Rydym ni yn fan hyn yn gallu newid pethau a dyna pam rydym ni’n wleidyddion. Rydym ni’n gallu deddfu ac mae angen inni ddefnyddio’r gallu yna heddiw. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees AC: As has already been stated by Mark Isherwood, autism is a lifelong disability that affects how people perceive the world and interact with others. Like my colleague from Caerphilly, I came across many individuals during my educational time.Like most Members across the Chamber we’ve heard this afternoon, I’ve received many representations from families who have children or siblings living with ASD, and it’s critical that the Welsh Government and all public bodies support these families who, on a daily basis, face many challenges, which they tackle to the best of their abilities for their families.The families who’ve come to see me have told me of their anger and frustration at having to cajole, argue and demand support for their loved ones, to get the support and care necessary to help those living with ASD to progress and improve their well-being. The numerous and unnecessary barriers they have to overcome increase the pressures and anxieties that they experience and delay the delivery of support services when needed, which hinders the development of the well-being of their child. These barriers stretch from getting a diagnosis to receiving support in education, home life or the workplace. The Welsh Government’s autism strategy first announced in 2008 was Wales leading the way in the UK by establishing this policy to support people with ASD and their families. The introduction of a new all-age national integrated autism service—again, Wales leading the way in the UK. We must ensure that we continue this commitment, so that our children and young people in Wales have the best possible start in life, and their families shouldn’t have to battle for their basic rights. In May 2015, we received an interim plan for 2015-16, which included steps for addressing delays in diagnosis and improving ASD diagnostic pathways. The experience of the families in my constituency is that they’re not seeing these waiting times decrease and they face a battle against eight-month diagnoses for their children. This not only affects the immediate need for educational and family support, but also the long-term well-being of the person living with ASD and their families. Last year, ASDinfoWales released figures that show that 64 per cent of families of people had issues in obtaining a first referral; 70 per cent waited longer than six months; and 47 per cent waited longer than 12 months. Added to that, 44 per cent of those polled rated the assessment process as ‘poor’ and ‘very poor’. I would hope the Minister would agree with me that this is not acceptable and we must do better.It’s essential that we ensure the autism strategy is consistently delivered by local authorities and health boards and is providing the best possible services and support for people living with ASD; that we review the criteria for referring children for diagnosis, so that it’s not always coming from the education authority, it could come from other pathways, and we ease the pathway they follow; and that the education authorities look beyond their obligations to consider not only education, but the whole of the future well-being of the child living with ASD, and that includes the impact upon their lives beyond education. During the summer recess, I met with a senior representative from Cwm Taf who is responsible for CAMHS in my area to discuss diagnosis delays faced by the many families. It was clear that a change had taken place in the assessments, but the backlog was challenging. They expressed a view that existing legislation, including the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, can deliver the legislative framework for ASD service provision. Consequently, I met with the future generations commissioner and asked her to look at the obligations towards ASD provision of all public bodies as part of her role under that Act.In the fourth Assembly, we introduced the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. I know Mark Isherwood has indicated that he doesn’t think the Act does—but it does provide clarity on identifying the needs of an individual, the support that they should be provided and gives more control over the services received. It also gives carers new rights to support—something families often miss out on; another lever already in place, possibly, that could help. We’re also waiting on the additional learning needs legislation, and I know Dai Lloyd indicated that that might not be the case, but we’re yet to see it published, and we’re yet to see the implication. It could be another lever—possibly.

Angela Burns AC: Would you take an intervention?

David Rees AC: Yes.

Angela Burns AC: I do appreciate you taking the intervention. I would like to make the point that a person with additional learning needs may well improve throughout their life, and end up leaving school without having that need. A person with autism has a condition that is highly unlikely to change, which is why they need an Act that will look at them from zero to end.

David Rees AC: I fully accept that autism is not something that will change; it will be there for their life, but what I’ve just indicated is that there is a possibility of looking at whether that Bill can actually help or not. That’s what I was referring to—[Interruption.] That’s what I was referring to.Minister, like my colleague from Caerphilly, I hope that you will work with stakeholders, evaluate these legislative levers then assess their impact upon the provision of the services for those, both children and adults, who are living with ASD. If they do not, like my colleague from Caerphilly, I would hope that you would actually ensure that the barriers being experienced and, I think, the service not being delivered, you will bring a Bill to this Chamber within this five-year period that will actually do that. Too many families have to overcome barrier after barrier after barrier, and, in their words, fight for every element of support for their children to receive a diagnosis. They shouldn’t have to—

Finish, please.

David Rees AC: Two sentences, and I’ve finished. They should have the reassurance that their child will receive the services needed without any fight with any authority, whether that be council or health. They want for their children what we want for ours; let’s help them achieve this.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you to those people who have already spoken in this debate, especially Mark Isherwood, of course, who has been crusading on this issue for many, many years, and has undertaken a sterling role as chair of the cross-party group on autism. I have to say, I’m a little taken aback at the Labour Party’s position on this. The tenor of this debate was that it was brought in good faith, expecting the support of all parties. There’s been a lot of consensus on autism-related issues in the past and, indeed, this party supported the development of the existing strategy, which was brought to this Assembly in 2008. But, it’s abundantly clear that that strategy isn’t delivering what we all expected it to and that people, unfortunately, are being let down. I do not want, as the Labour Party appear to want to do, to continue to delay and procrastinate and say, ‘Let’s wait and see what happens with this, let’s wait and see what happens with that,’ when it is abundantly clear that the existing systems in Wales are not fit for purpose and are not working—

David Rees rose—

David Melding AC: I’ll be happy to take an intervention.

David Rees AC: I thank you for taking an intervention. Is it fair to say, and I recognise your comments, that since the social services and well-being Act actually came into force in April, we haven’t had an opportunity to assess the evidence, which was commented on before, as to whether that is actually achieving the goal we wanted to achieve in the circumstances?

Darren Millar AC: Both you and I sat on that committee, looking at that particular Act. I do hope and believe that it will bring improvements more generally within our social care system, particularly encouraging and promoting work with the NHS. But it’s not going to solve the problem, which spans not just the social care system and the national health service, but also our education system and other parts of our public services as well. That’s why we need some autism-specific legislation, as is now the case in England. In fact, I just wish you would all listen to your colleague David Hanson MP, who was at the north Wales autism conference just last week, waxing lyrical about the legislation in England, which is working, which is beginning to deliver improvements over the border. Frankly, if it’s working there, we can get it working here in our Wales as well, and that’s what I want to see.It’s not only public services that we need to engage in improving autism services here in Wales, but we also need to engage the third sector. There’s some excellent work going on in the third sector, not just the National Autistic Society, which does a tremendous job, but also those smaller organisations the length and breadth of Wales that are often made up of individuals who have experienced the system for themselves or have children who’ve encountered problems in the system and have come together. They’ve often formed small organisations and charities that are giving their support and sharing their experiences with one another, helping people to navigate what is a very complex system if you’ve never experienced it before, trying to get the support in place for their loved ones.

Lee Waters rose—

Darren Millar AC: It is not acceptable, in this day and age—I’ll take the intervention in a second—that we have young people with autism in behavioural units because there’s been a failure to diagnose them, rather than in mainstream schools. It is not acceptable that that is the case, and yet it is happening in Wales even today. I’ll happily take the intervention.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. My family gets support from a small charity working with families with autism. I know precisely the difficulty of navigating the system. I have close friends who have navigated the system with huge frustration. The current system is not good enough. Nobody here is disagreeing with that; we are working to improve it. But answer my question to Mark Isherwood: why are we prioritising one neurological condition over another, when the issues that they are facing are common and need to be addressed?

Darren Millar AC: The reality is that not every organisation is asking for specific legislation. This is one that crosses a number of barriers. I have already said: social services and well-being, yes, let’s get the health boards working with social service departments. But what about our education system? It doesn’t encompass the breadth of public services that it needs to. I just want to take the few remaining moments to talk about an excellent organisation in my own constituency, which is supporting people not just in Clwyd West, but across the whole of north Wales: Createasmile. It was one of these organisations that was set up in exactly the circumstances that I described earlier. It was set up by Eddie and Sharon Bateman, two local people in Kinmel Bay who had difficulties accessing services for their children. As a result of that charity now, there are dozens of people who have been able to get the support that they needed. But it shouldn’t take that organisation having to give that support. Our system in Wales, our education system, our health system and, indeed, our local authorities need to work together more consistently. We need to get those diagnoses much, much earlier, and we need to make sure that we give these young people in particular, as well as older people with autism, but young people in particular the best start and opportunity in life. They’re not getting that at the moment, and that’s why we need to legislate.

Neil Hamilton AC: Mark Isherwood opened this debate with a compelling and comprehensive case for this Bill, and I’ve been rather taken aback by some of the interventions by Labour AMs. I think I am right in saying that Lee Waters and I first met in a hustings in Llanelli organised by the National Autistic Society. I know him to be, of course, a very humane person. All I would say to him is: don’t make the best the enemy of the good. We need action now. There’s been talk for far too long. Let’s put some flesh and blood on the intellectual arguments that have been advanced today from all parties. I have a constituent who has written to me with two children with autism. She says that the journey through the various systems in place has been very different despite them both being on the autistic spectrum. She says:‘My son was diagnosed fairly early in life, just after his third birthday. He was given a statement and awarded a support worker for two and a half hours a week, increased to four hours in holiday periods. We were awarded 24 days a year respite, after an almighty battle, but only at a time convenient to the service provider, not to us as a family. My daughter wasn’t diagnosed until much later in life, at seven and a half. I had to take the local authority to a tribunal before they would carry out a statutory assessment of her educational needs, even though by this time she had been diagnosed with Asperger’s. A battle also ensued over support worker provision, and eventually she was awarded two hours a week, with no increase in holiday time. Another battle, and it was eventually upped to two and a half hours. Despite repeated requests, my daughter has not had any nights of respite provision awarded, ever. Currently, I am awaiting a carer’s assessment, but it is 12 months overdue. I am also awaiting news on whether we can attend some family therapy sessions, as my daughter has recently revealed that she doesn’t feel male or female and would therefore prefer to be addressed solely in gender-neutral terms. This has resulted in various bouts of self-harm, including head-banging, biting her arms and scratching her face. Thankfully, as yet, there have been no cutting incidents, and I fervently hope there never will be. People talk about postcode lotteries when it comes to the availability of services, but there is also a diagnosis lottery at work. We need this Act to sort autism out in Wales.’ I’ve got another constituent who has also written to me in very emotional terms, but this is her daily life. I won’t read all the letter. In talking about her son, she says:‘He has attended an additional learning needs unit in his school for over two years, attending in the morning and attending mainstream class in the afternoon. This ensures that he has help to concentrate on lessons and not be distracted by others or distract others himself, and that he integrates also into class and mixes with his peers.’She says:‘I found out yesterday, without discussion with his parents, he now attends the unit all day, and I’m awaiting an explanation for this. Whilst it will undoubtedly improve his attention, I worry he is missing out by not mixing with his classmates. He’s currently not diagnosed. The health board are of the opinion that he makes good eye contact and is sociable. These are just two markers in a very wide spectrum. Why should my boy suffer without the correct methods to help him? I worry that now he is in year 4, it’s not long until he starts comprehensive school. With an apparent lack of cohesion between the education and health department, combined with an obvious lack of understanding of the condition, how many children will be failed and destined to live a life where they are unable to fulfil their full potential? He may not grow up to rule the world, but he’s my world, and there should be no obstacles in his way to stop him reaching for the stars.’She says,‘Many with autism don’t have a voice or have obstacles in their way that prevent that voice being heard. Please stand up and be heard. Be their voice; the voice of the future.’That is the opportunity that we have today and, yes, I understand the intellectual arguments that we’ve heard from Labour AMs, but what we need is action. We need now to act on this, not to spend another 20 years talking about whether we could improve upon what is being put forward today. If you think you’ve got a better way, put it forward. If you haven’t got one, then let us vote for this Bill.

Thank you very much. Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you, and I’m pleased to contribute to this debate, having many constituents here today. The day that school photos come home is an annual highlight for every parent—as I’m sure you can imagine—who hand them out with pride around the family so everyone can compare the children to how they were a year ago and remark upon how much they’ve grown. So, imagine if your children’s picture comes home with a post-it note attached that reads ‘ASD’. That stands for autism spectrum disorder. Nothing wrong with the pictures; two beautiful children smiling for the camera, but accompanied by a label that says your school sees your children as autism ‘sufferers’, not promising athletes, budding artists, talented mathematicians, but children with autism. Imagine if this wasn’t the first time it had happened. In fact, it was the third, and it happened to a Port Talbot constituent of mine just a week ago. We need to start from this kind of experience, from a realisation that when even our schools can casually stigmatise the children they are meant to be teaching, then this Assembly needs to take the lead in changing society’s attitudes so that people with autism are seen in the same complex way as we all regard one another. Before and since this debate was tabled, I’ve had not only e-mails in my inbox, but I’ve met people who have come into my office crying about their situations. During the election—Julie James will remember this, being on the panel with me—a woman said during that debate—and it will always stay with me—’I am more stressed fighting the system than I am dealing with my son and his issues every day of the week.’ In one e-mail I had from somebody else:‘After diagnosis at four, I was told nothing could be done for autism. This is a cruel lie. There is no cure, but there are many therapies that are passed over by mainstream services.’Another said, and I quote:‘Our son was seven. We contacted our GP, as we were concerned he could be on the spectrum. We were met with the words, “Are you sure he’s not just a little shit? Many children are just little shits.” Obviously, we left that meeting shocked.’Another:‘Our practice manager assumed there were very few autistic patients. In fact, there is a similar number to dementia patients, whose literature was plastered all over the waiting rooms.’Lastly:‘We want him to fulfil his dream of becoming a train driver, but support to children with autism is patchy at best. Our experience should not be the norm, and currently it is. Our son wants to work when an adult. We fear, without support now, he will not be able to.’Research from the National Autistic Society found that only two children in five are receiving all the support outlined in their statement. So, any legislation should look to deal with this problem, too. There is an additional learning needs Bill on the way, but Plaid Cymru believes this may fall short of what is required, because it offers little or no support for adults with autism while making no distinction between children with Asperger’s, who are often high academic achievers, and others on the autism spectrum. Plaid Cymru believes that any new legislation should protect and promote the rights of autistic people in Wales, their families and their carers. So, we will be supporting this motion, as a way of reminding the Welsh Government of our manifesto commitment to legislate in this area, and I would say that has to come in the form of a Bill.Lee Waters has made many interventions here today, and what I would like to say to him is this could be an exemplar, a template, for other conditions. It does not need to be confined to autism. We have the powers here in Wales to make legislation work. If strategies are not delivering on the grounds for the people who need it, it is our duty to look and to see how we can make that situation better for them on the ground. If we have statutory legislation that will hold people to account, then they will have to act and we will have to hold them to account. So please don’t rule it out now before we’ve even got to that point in the discussion. I’ll take an intervention.

Lee Waters AC: In that case, how many other conditions are you planning to introduce legislation for?

Bethan Sayed AC: Like I said, we can look at other conditions down the line. I seriously don’t think we should rule it out because there are other conditions that would need to be potentially legislated for. I sat on the Children, Young People and Education Committee when we took out the additional learning needs section of that particular legislation, and it only dealt with people in the education system. Autism is a far wider debate than education alone, and so that is why I and others on this side of the benches will be supporting this motion today.

And very briefly, Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’ll be very brief, and thank you for taking me to speak. I’ve worked as a teacher, and I did work as a teacher for 23 years. So, I’ve done the job at the sharp end, and latterly I taught many, many children with this condition who were simply let down by the system. I saw the frustrations of families, I saw and experienced how badly these children were treated, and an Act is needed. What I’ll say is that if this vote is not unanimous, then there are Members in this Chamber who should hold their heads in shame.

Thank you. I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m very pleased to have this opportunity today to set out how the Welsh Government is working to improve the lives of children and adults with autism and their families in Wales. But before I do that, on a personal note, I’ll remind Members that before I came into politics I worked in the autism sector, so I understand the issues that people with autism face, and their families, and I’ve worked closely with people with autism for years. So, please believe that at heart we have genuinely the best interests of people affected by autism. How we address those needs is the matter that we will be debating. We’ve put in place new legislative and policy levers in order to innovate and secure real advances in services and support, and these advances must be given the time and the chance to work. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 will transform the way that we meet the needs of all people with care and support needs, including people with autism and their carers. It places right at the heart the individual in terms of the decisions about their own care and support, and it gives them the power over defining the outcomes that they want to achieve. It aims to meet the person’s need, not their diagnosis. However, the Act did only come into force in April of this year, and we are having early excellent feedback from stakeholders and individuals and practitioners, and we do need to give that Act the time to bed in.

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention? Will you commit, if that Act has not worked, to bring forward an autism Act?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, this is where we’re heading, Mike, over the course of the speech. So, indeed this Act does put a special focus on autism. It puts a joint duty on health boards and local authorities to undertake the population needs assessment and to report on this by March of 2017. Autism and learning disabilities are identified as core themes of that work, and the assessment must identify the range and level of preventative services required to meet the needs of people with autism and learning disabilities in those areas. Staying with legislation, we’re also delivering an ambitious additional learning needs transformation programme. The forthcoming additional learning needs and education tribunal Bill, which forms part of this wider programme, is expected to be introduced into the Assembly before Christmas and will take into account the needs of children and young people on the autism spectrum. The programme will address key issues that have been raised with us by parents, such as the need for learners and their parents to be at the centre of decisions and at the centre of the support and planning process, and the importance of skilled and confident professionals with greater multi-agency collaboration. But we’re not waiting for the legislation to reach the statute book to begin this transformation process. It’s already well under way and it is having an impact on the ground. In terms of our policy levers, we were the first country to publish an autism strategy in 2008 and we’ve recently consulted on the draft refreshed action plan, which addresses the priorities for action that have been identified by stakeholders. These priorities include raising awareness, improving access to diagnosis, addressing unmet needs and a renewed focus on supportive education and employment. There were 76 responses to the consultation on the action plan, and the feedback that we’ve received indicates that there is widespread support for our approach. I’ll be publishing that refreshed action plan in November and this will be accompanied by a delivery plan to monitor implementation and to measure the progress that we’re making.We’re already taking important practical steps to deliver on our commitments to improve the lives of people with autism. In April of this year, we commenced the roll-out of the new national integrated autism service, and this service marks a turning point in the way that care and support is delivered to people with autism. This too must be given the chance to bed in and have an impact.

Simon Thomas AC: Will the Minister give way?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, of course.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m grateful to the Minister. I find it hard to reconcile what she’s telling the Chamber today with what the First Minister told me on 28 June, when I specifically asked him about an autism Act and he replied as follows, and I quote:‘ that is being considered at present…in terms of seeing in what way we can develop legislation on autism, and particularly whether we can ensure that the action plan can be strengthened through being placed on a statutory basis ultimately.’She only pins her hopes on the action plan. The First Minister told me they were looking at legislation. Why can’t you accept the motion today?

Rebecca Evans AC: There’s no difference in terms of what the First Minister said and what I’m telling you today. The point is, and what I’m illustrating to you is, the legislative and policy levers that we’ve put in place must be given a chance to bed in before we can take a decision on whether or not legislation must be introduced to fill in any gaps that there are. So, today, we’re not being asked to vote on whether we have the needs of people with autism at heart, we’re not being asked to vote on what initiatives we want to bring forward to improve the lives of people with autism and their families; we’re being asked to tie our hands and commit to legislation within this Assembly, and we’re not at that point at the moment, because we don’t know yet what impact these initiatives that we’ve talked about will have.The service that I’ve just described is backed by £6 million of Welsh Government investment over three years and this will be delivered through our regional partnership boards, which are formed under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, to ensure collaborative and integrated working across health boards, local authorities and the third sector. The service will see new specialist teams in every region, providing adult diagnosis, support in the community and advice and information for adults with autism and for their parents and carers. This service will provide tailored training for professional groups. There’ll be preventative support for adults with autism to help them maintain independence and avoid the need for more intensive support. This all-age service supports the improvements we’re delivering in children’s diagnosis, treatment and support services through the ‘Together for Children and Young People’ programme, which, again, is supported by £2 million of funding a year. The programme has a specific work stream devoted to improving neurodevelopmental conditions, with health boards working together to develop and agree a national high-level diagnostic pathway to ensure consistent provision for young people with autism and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. To support our transformational approach in education and in response to feedback that we’ve had from parents, we’ve also developed new autism resources for schools. Earlier this year, we launched the Learning with Autism primary schools programme, a resource and toolkit for the whole school community, including teachers, support staff and children. This programme includes the autism superhero award for pupils, rewarding them for becoming autism aware. The Learning with Autism primary school programme is now being delivered across primary schools in Wales and, to build on its success, similar tailored early years and secondary school programmes are also in development. So, as you can see, at the beginning of this Assembly term, we are embarking on a new chapter in the development and delivery of support for people with autism and their families and carers.Members will be aware that we have made a future commitment to consider the need for autism legislation if, in the years to come, there remains significant gaps in services and support that can only be addressed through new legislation alone.

Suzy Davies AC: Will you take an intervention? I’m grateful to you for taking an intervention. When you say ‘in the years to come’, how long does that mean?

Carry on.

Rebecca Evans AC: I’d certainly like to give the legislation and the new integrated autism service, which, as I say, only came into force in April of this year, a chance to bed in. But, I think, what is really important is that I met recently with NAS Cymru and I’ve asked them to work through their draft Bill, which I assume is the same as your draft Bill, with my officials, identifying areas that they believe cannot be met already through the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 or the policy direction that I’ve set out for you in the debate today, and I look forward to receiving the results of that work to understand where there are gaps in what your Bill would like to achieve as compared to the legislation and the policy that already exist. That piece of work with the National Autistic Society is ongoing at the moment. I do think, to conclude, that there is now a need to give the new legislation and policies the time to be delivered, time to bed in and to demonstrate their effect, before we can decide whether there is a need to introduce another piece of legislation.

Thank you very much. I call on Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, we’re always waiting. More importantly, these people are always waiting. Nobody ever comes and sits in this Chamber at this time of night and listens to us talk about anything. But these people have, because it really is up close and personal for them. And the reason why we brought this motion today was we thought this was like a little nudge, just to get you over the precipice, because we know you’re trying to do some really good things on additional learning needs. We know that Plaid Cymru had this in their manifesto. We know the Liberal Democrats had it in their manifesto, UKIP are behind it and it was in the Welsh Conservative manifesto. We know that the Minister for the additional learning needs legislation said, and I quote, ‘We need to ensure that an autism Act appears on the legislative programme of the next Government, and we do need to ensure that the legislation has teeth and delivers for people and families in Wales.’I also know that the First Minister in response to Andrew R.T. Davies said,‘it is something we are actively considering. I’m not saying we will simply replicate what happened in Westminster. I believe it needs consideration separately from other legislation, but, certainly, it is something that we’re willing to discuss with other parties in order to ensure that the services we have for autism are the best they can be.’ My party has had no such discussions, no such offers of discussions, to talk about how we can improve autism services for people with that condition in Wales. We’ve talked about this for so long, and I think that Suzy Davies put it in a nutshell—when and what’s the timescale? And if I could just turn for one moment to Lee Waters, because you’ve asked the same question three times. Bethan gave you a very good response and I’m going to add to it: no-one else is asking, and the sheer scale of the issue with autism is phenomenal here in Wales. It is a massive, massive problem. And let’s be clear, as Bethan said, if we can get something that work for autism, it is going to help every other neurological condition. And I’m going to end—because I know I’ve got very little time—on a story about two young men. I know both of them very well. One cannot make a cup of tea without having to follow the signs stuck on the cupboard. The other one went to university and got a first, but he is now working in a fast-food joint on a part-time basis, because as soon as he mentions the fact that he is autistic, people turn away from him. Because what we don’t do, none of us, and none of our society, is value the way, value the different, special, magical, incredible way that an autistic person looks at our world. Because, my goodness, our world can be looked at in a great many different ways. And we’ve got the chance to help them, and I would implore you, Minister, to reconsider this, and I promise you, and I put the Welsh Government on notice, Deputy Presiding Officer, we will be here in six months’ time, in 12 months’ time and in 18 months’ time to make sure that this eventually happens.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Thank you. Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

It has been agreed that voting time will take place before the short debate. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I intend to proceed directly to voting time. Okay. Thank you.

7. 6. Voting Time

The first vote is on the individual Members’ debate on active travel, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Lee Waters, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Huw Irranca-Davies and John Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. There voted for the amendment, 50. There was one abstention, therefore that motion is carried.

Motion agreed: For 50, Against 0, Abstain 1.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6089.Click to see vote results

We move to the vote now on the Plaid Cymru debate on mental health, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If this proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. Voted for the motion nine, there were five abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, the motion falls.

Motion not agreed: For 9, Against 37, Abstain 5.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6115.Click to see vote results

We now go to amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. There voted for the amendment 42, no abstentions, nine against. Therefore, amendment 1 is carried.

Amendment agreed: For 42, Against 9, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6115.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

Amendment 1 is agreed, therefore we go to the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6115 as amendedTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Regrets that prejudice towards those who have, or have had, mental health problems continues, and the impact this can have on employment, income and well-being for those with mental health problems.2. Believes that education about mental health should start at a young age and schools should be equipped to promote well-being amongst all pupils.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:a) end silo working in mental health delivery; andb) work across the public sector to raise awareness of mental health issues, promoting preventative techniques, such as talking therapies and mindfulness.

Open the vote. Close the vote. There voted for the motion 51, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is carried.

Motion NDM6115 as amended agreed: For 51, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6115 as amended.Click to see vote results

Turn to the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on autism. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. There voted for the motion 24, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 24, Against 27, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6114.Click to see vote results

8. 7. Short Debate: Common Cause: Women, Wales and the Commonwealth—the Role of Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians in the Post-Brexit Era

We will now move to the short debate in the name of Joyce Watson. If you’re leaving the Chamber, can you do so quietly, please? Sorry, if Members are going, can they go quietly, please, and quickly? Thank you. We move to the short debate, which is by Joyce Watson on a topic she has chosen, Common Cause: Women, Wales and the Commonwealth—the Role of Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians in the Post-Brexit Era’. I call on Joyce Watson to speak to the topic she has chosen. Joyce.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to bring forward this topic for debate this evening, and I thank Members for their expression of interest in contributing to what I’m sure will be an interesting and worthwhile discussion. I’m allowing time for Rhun ap Iorwerth, Rhianon Passmore, and Suzy Davies to make contributions, and I look forward to hearing from them. During a 1962 House of Lords debate concerning British entry into the Common Market, a sceptical Clement Attlee said, and I quote:‘it is really an extraordinary change. We used to put the Commonwealth first. It is quite obvious now that the Commonwealth comes second. We are going to be closer friends with the Germans, the Italians and the French than we are with the Australians or the Canadians. People are talking about what will happen thirty years hence: but…twenty years ago I should never have imagined that we would be putting, as close friends, the Germans in front of the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Indians or anyone else…. It is…an entire revolution in the historic position of this country. I am not putting it forward that necessarily old things are right…. It may be they are right; but make no mistake: this is an enormous change.’Well, 20 years ago, I would never have imagined that we would be leaving the European Union, but here we are. Attlee also had views about the mechanism that delivered us here—referenda—but I’m not going into all that again. So, as we prepare to leave the EU we face another enormous change: another revolution in the historic position of this country, but we must not leave behind those friendships as part of the European Union, and that we hold on to our place in the Commonwealth. After all, likewise, outside the EU, we must maintain our place in Europe.I certainly support the view that the great challenge of our time is to maintain Britain and Wales’s place in the world as an open, tolerant and outward-looking country. Amber Rudd’s nativist speech to the Conservative party last week was a shot across the bows on that front. Thankfully, she has u-turned on plans to force companies to disclose how many foreign workers they employ. Nevertheless, it is alarming for me that a British Home Secretary should float such an idea in the very first place. Wales must challenge this new snarling world view. Of course, we must work to shape the Brexit negotiations to bend it towards our best interests, but I also believe that there is a big opportunity for us now within the Commonwealth.In May, I was elected by members of the British Islands and Mediterranean region of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association to represent their group on the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians international committee—I know that that is a mouthful, but there is no other way of saying it. It is the first time a Member of the National Assembly for Wales has held that position, and it is, indeed, an honour. As I say, as well as regenerating friendships in the EU in light of Brexit, we should also reaffirm and refresh Wales’s Commonwealth connections. But what are they? What is it that we have in common? Born out of an empire, today, the Commonwealth is a family of nations. The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association—CPA—comprises of more than 180 branches from legislatures in Africa, Asia, Australia, the British Islands and Mediterranean region, Canada, the Caribbean, the Americas, the Atlantic, India, the Pacific, and south-east Asia. It is a global friendship that is based on values. That is irrespective of gender, race, religion or culture. We are united by our commitment to the rule of law, to individual rights and freedoms, and to the ideals of parliamentary democracy.Of course, we cannot ignore that some religious and cultural practices in Commonwealth countries victimise and marginalise sections of the population, namely minorities and females, but that is where the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians seek to influence. It was founded by women delegates in 1989, and it has strived since that time to increase women’s representation in parliaments, to mainstream gender consideration in all CPA activities and their programmes, to challenge discrimination, and identify and pursue practical steps to achieve gender equality and the protection and empowerment of both women and girls. In 1991, the Commonwealth enshrined those goals in the Harare declaration.So, there is an abridged history, but what do we do? Well, I will be working with colleagues to advance three themes: ending violence against women and girls, women in leadership, and women’s economic empowerment. The United Nations’ sustainable development goals do provide a framework for that work. Looking at the current world order, there has been progress: increased female representation in national parliaments, increased enrolment of girls in schools, and a shift in the rights of women, but, if we scratch the surface, in politics, across the Commonwealth, women’s parliamentary representation has plateaued. There is only 22 per cent of national parliamentarians who are female. This institution has a proud record on gender balance, as does my party. We are, within our party, currently one more than half in that make-up, but, if we go close to home, there is only 29 per cent of Members of the House of Commons who are female. There have been, however, important steps forward in Commonwealth countries in recent years: the first woman elected in St Kitts; Trinidad and Tobago reaching a 30 per cent target for female representation; Namibia’s first female Prime Minister; Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appointing a gender-balanced Cabinet; Rwanda continuing to lead the world with more than 60 per cent of its Parliament being female; and, yes, the UK has its second female Prime Minister.But a right gained is not necessarily a right that will be maintained. So, the role of Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians is to develop and promote mechanisms to boost and sustain female representation in public life. But that is not an end in itself. When we gain office, we must shape policy and legislation. In this Assembly, my party, as I say, has a good story to tell, but we can’t afford to rest on our laurels. Anyone who was involved in the all-women shortlist will testify how hard-fought the battles have been and it’s an experience that we can share with our friends internationally. Let’s not forget that, in 1992, only 9 per cent of UK MPs were women. It was hard mechanisms; it wasn’t soft rhetoric that got us where we are. In education, yes, there’s been an overall improvement, yet there will still be more than 63 million girls who won’t be in school today. According to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, 16 million girls between six and 11 will never get the chance to learn to read or write in primary school—and that is twice the number of boys—and education, we all know, is a transformational tool for reducing poverty and inequality. At the same time, we recognise that economic participation and independence are equally important. On that front, I think we need to look at our own record. We know that women in the UK are being hit the hardest by austerity; we know that single mothers and widows are seeing their living standards drop by 20 per cent by 2020 according to the Women’s Budget Group. Every society has to recognise its own cultural and social road blocks that women must face. In the Commonwealth region that we belong to, we do have close-knit communities—the Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Malta, the Isle of Man, St Helena and Falklands—where escaping violence is difficult. So, together, we are sharing ideas about how to protect women and children in those circumstances. Gibraltar has led the way on that. It is one of the reasons that I prioritised working internationally on the White Ribbon campaign, involving men in the movement to stop violence against women. Following our discussion at the inaugural Commonwealth Women’s Forum held last year in the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Malta, I discovered that it is in Malta the male MPs are now taking a lead role in that campaign. I also found out that Sandra James, a previous parliamentarian in Guernsey, had a campaign about getting more women elected into Guernsey and that has worked as well. Here, yesterday, I attended an NSPCC event in the Senedd, and they discussed their joint campaign with Bawso working within the Cardiff Somali community to combat female genital mutilation, and that is being progressed by Rebecca Kadaga, the international chair of CWP in Uganda. That is a very brave decision. We’ve seen Scotland take forward legislation for guardianships for children who arrive in the country unaccompanied. It is the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association UK that leads an international project on parliamentary oversight of the new sustainable development goals. They are just a few examples, and I can see the clock ticking. But it is by work internationally and our insight and learning that we progress. I feel really very strongly that we cannot and should never, ever reduce our internationalist experience. My very last statement will be that we are in Wales giving that advantage to young people from Wales, and we are helping, through the Commonwealth Youth Parliament, pupils to have an opportunity to represent Wales at international events, and that happened a couple of years ago with pupils from Ysgol Dyffryn Aman. Coleg Sir Gâr sent students through the Welsh Government’s Wales for Africa programme to help build projects in Uganda. Those experiences, for those young people of Wales to look outwards, not inwards, are absolutely essential. In my opinion, I think that as long as we are members of the CPA, we must embrace it and we must share those experiences.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Very briefly, as the chair of the CPA Assembly branch, I’d like to pay tribute to Joyce Watson for the work that she did as chair during the fourth Assembly. That was a period when the branch did hold the regional British isles and Mediterranean region conference here in the Senedd in 2014. The theme of that conference was fair access to democracy, and promoting the important role that women have to play was a vital part of that conference. I know that Joyce will be pursuing that particular agenda in her role as chair of our region’s female parliamentarians, and we’re very proud of her in her election to that role. Earlier today, I chaired the cross-party group on international Wales. Encouraging new international links and strengthening current links is going to be crucial for the future of Wales—more important than ever now following the vote to leave the European Union. The Cmmonwealth does offer those links. We should be seeking every opportunity to promote those links.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First of all, thank you, Joyce Watson, for letting me participate in this short debate. I would firstly, though, like to congratulate the Member for Mid and West Wales on her excellent work representing Commonwealth women parliamentarians of the British isles and Mediterranean region on the international Commonwealth parliamentary steering committee—it is a mouthful. It’s fantastic to see a Welsh woman holding this important international role, so well done. In these post-Brexit times, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association forum being held in Westminster next week will be a welcome opportunity for parliamentarians from across the Commonwealth to come together for harmonious and constructive discussions. As vice-chair of the Assembly’s Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I’m also determined to ensure that a similar spirit of co-operation and tolerance continues to thrive in Wales, as it has done previously. Entering the post-Brexit era is an especially pertinent time to recognise the important role of women in advancing welfare and human rights issues up the political agenda, and the work of all of us, irrespective of gender here in the Senedd, is testament to this. Recently, I had the privilege of meeting a delegation from the Botswanan Parliament last month, and they were very impressed with the example set by female parliamentarians in Wales in the Senedd. We are rightfully proud of our excellent gender balance record here. Let us continue to maintain this example for women throughout Wales and, of course, in the Westminster Parliament, the Commonwealth and the wider world. Thank you.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I just add my congratulations to Joyce as well? I think it is something that we should all be proud of, but you most of all. The transfer of languages between generations tends to fall to women—not exclusively, of course—but I’m wondering whether there’s something here that could work to the UK’s advantage post Brexit when it comes to acquired modern foreign languages. These skills, which are represented very fragilely in the school curriculum at the moment, are going to be more important post Brexit, where multilingualism will help us be more attractive as a trading partner, especially as the dominance of English as the lingua franca of Europe may change, of course. And, of course, we’re more aware that Commonwealth countries’ own languages are coming more to the fore on the global stage as well. I think the position might have equalised somewhat recently, but historically more girls pursued modern foreign language study than boys, and as a result, maybe multilingualism and agile communication generally may have found themselves in that category of undervalued skills associated primarily with women. But they are necessary, not just to trade, but to mutual understanding, and that’s the prerequisite to helping equality and enforcement of rights. I was just wondering whether you agree that there’s a role for women parliamentarians to raise the status of modern foreign language acquisition, not necessarily through formal education, but for the reasons you give—not as many girls as boys study at all—and to use their own advocacy skills to raise modern foreign languages as an opportunity for women across the globe, but particularly in our relationships with Europe and our Commonwealth cousins. Thank you.

I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt, to reply to the debate. Jane.

Jane Hutt AC: I welcome this opportunity to respond to this debate today and I’d like to thank Joyce Watson for her opening address and for the leadership role she’s played and is playing, demonstrated by her commitment to ensuring that the role and influence of Commonwealth women parliamentarians is actually extended and expanded. To have a Welsh woman Assembly Member leading the way and leading this is so well recognised—recognised by Rhun ap Iorwerth, Rhianon Passmore and Suzy Davies today. So, that is the most important starting point.Of course, this body that you’re so engaged with and have this leadership role in—and indeed, Rhun, in terms of your role, and vice-chair of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, Rhianon—it is instrumental in generating discussion at the highest levels about the many issues and barriers facing women across the Commonwealth, and events across the world. At your conference in February this year on influencing policy and legislation for the empowerment of women, I was delighted to see that Welsh women shared their expertise and experience—Adele Baumgardt on gender budgeting and Dr Alison Parken on employment policies and equal pay. So, you were enabling Welsh women to share their expertise with Commonwealth women parliamentarians. Also at that conference, Joyce shared information—she’s talked about it this afternoon—about our ground-breaking Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, and our appointment of a national adviser for violence against women. One of the key roles of the Commonwealth women parliamentarians is to look at ways of increasing the number of women in political and public life. Across the UK and, indeed, here in Wales, women are still under-represented in our political structures and decision-making processes. An absence of women in decision making, a lack of focus on issues that matter to women and girls, and a shortage of avenues to make their voices heard often leads to disengagement with politics and a weak basis for effective policy and legislation. In Wales, we continue our commitment to increase the numbers of women in public life and to achieve gender balance in positions of power. We also, through our work to address the under-representation of women on public sector boards, and our diversity and democracy programme driving that, are challenging and changing the status quo.We have pledged our commitment to the 50/50 by 2020 campaign, alongside employers and organisations in all sectors in Wales. We have a pledge as a Welsh Government to achieve a 50 per cent gender balance within the senior civil service by the year 2020, but we’re also making funding available to the Women Making a Difference balancing power project that’s educating and empowering women across Wales to have the skills, confidence and mindset to become leaders in their communities, and decision makers at all levels of public and political life. I do want to recognise at this point our female commissioners in Wales—Sophie Howe, the commissioner for future generations, Sarah Rochira for older people, Sally Holland for children, and Meri Huws for the Welsh language. These are significant public appointments. They do showcase the talent, the initiatives and the strides we’ve taken here in Wales to make sure that we have the best, that we encourage women to put themselves forward, and then they are appointed to those important positions. We are of course in Wales at the forefront of bringing gender equality into public and political life, with women playing key roles in many areas. I think it’s very important to recognise that we have had a good story to tell in Wales. It’s common knowledge that we were the first devolved Assembly or Parliament to achieve a 50/50 gender balance. From 2000 to 2005 over half of our Cabinet Ministers, and from 2005 to 2007 over half of all our Assembly Members, were women. But we have to recognise that we’ve slipped back in terms of the number of female Assembly Members, now at 42 per cent. We’ve got to work together to find ways to encourage and support women to come forward as the Assembly Members of the future, and this debate enables us to make that point again. Evidence does show clearly that gender-balanced boards, parliaments and leadership teams are better, not just for women, but for society as a whole. I think it is important just to recognise the ways in which this can be delivered. We have, for example Girls Make a Difference conferences, held over the last two years, which brought role models for a range of different careers, and year 12 and 13 girls together. Speakers were inspiring and encouraging young women to consider a wide range of non-traditional careers. There is a danger that efforts to ensure equal representation and gender equality could be undermined in the post-Brexit era, and Joyce Watson has drawn attention to this, as did Rhun ap Iorwerth this afternoon. Women could become less visible. Their voices may not be heard in the debates that determine our lives and our futures. Suzy Davies makes an important point about modern foreign languages, and perhaps we can have a role to play in progressing those and ensuring that girls can be at the forefront. We want to ensure that, post Brexit, we don’t lose these opportunities, that women’s voices are heard, and that we keep and strengthen the networks that we have across Europe, and that we have to continue to face those barriers facing women and girls in terms of leadership opportunities. I think it is important that we look at the wider world, as you have, Joyce, today, looking, for example, at our continued commitment to the Wales for Africa programme. Since 2006, the Welsh Government has supported and encouraged thousands of people to get involved in mutually beneficial links between Wales and Africa, contributing to the campaign to make poverty history, and to deliver the UN millennium development goals. I met a Kenyan woman Minister, when I was health Minister in the Welsh Government, who had attended the same government school as myself in Eldoret in Kenya during my childhood in East Africa. We’d both become Ministers through very different circumstances. I was very proud and privileged to meet her. Education continues to be the vital link in helping to achieve gender equality, and in the words of Dr James Emmanuel Kwegyir Aggrey, a great Ghanaian educationalist—let’s remember this—if you educate a man, you educate an individual, but if you educate a woman, you educate a family, a nation. In recent years, we’ve seen progress in Africa—Joyce has mentioned these—in terms of women breaking into positions of power, and since 2015, the UN sustainable development goals have been the focus of our efforts, including goal 5, to achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls. We strengthened our commitment last year with the passing of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We want to build a prosperous Wales, but we take into account the global impact of our decisions and our actions. Finally, I want to highlight the work of the Safe Foundation here in Wales. On 24 October, 10 young people, including four young women from Wales—those are young people who are in education, employment or training—will be travelling to Uganda to work on a social enterprise project. They’ll be participating in the life of the local community and its economy. They’ll be building a clay oven and delivering workshops on how to make bread. For the young people from Wales, I’ve no doubt—and you talked about the Commonwealth Youth Parliament and that exchange—that this will be a life-changing experience. It will help develop their confidence and leadership skills, and recognise that they have so much to offer. At the same time, the project will provide real and sustainable benefits in Africa in terms of income, nutrition and skills. And, of course, it will be, for those young people, an opportunity, as you say, Joyce Watson, to look out and to recognise what they can share across the world. So, I’m very proud to respond to the debate today. Again, I thank Joyce for all her work in promoting Wales on the international stage, but we must continue to work together to make Wales a country where women are equally represented at all levels, and where there is fairness and equality for all, which we want to share across the world.

Thank you very much. That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:45.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government tackling poverty in Wales? Transferred for written answer by the Cabinet Secretaryfor Economy and Infrastructure

Ken Skates: As a Government, our focus for poverty continues to be on investment in the early years and employability. Evidence tells us that this is where we can have the most impact and reflects the policy levers available in relation to tackling poverty and improving the outcomes of low income households.